Office Hours with Angelique and Toby. Released July 11, 2026. 31 minutes.

About this episode

Warren Sheir talks with Toby and Angelique about Chinese medicine, nutrition, and food as an everyday therapy. He traces his path from macrobiotics to Chinese medicine school in 1995, and explains why he and his co-authors wrote Ancient Wisdom, Modern Kitchen: to give students and patients clear, practical recipes rooted in Chinese dietary principles.

He describes his approach to good, clean food: whole and organic foods where possible, plenty of vegetables, some whole grains, clean animal products, and simple meals eaten slowly without overeating, along with how he brings dietary advice into clinical practice.

Topics

Warren’s path into Chinese medicine
Good, clean food in real life
Why he wrote Ancient Wisdom, Modern Kitchen
Food as medicine in clinical practice
Helping patients make dietary changes that last

A note for listeners: this is a conversation among practitioners, offered for education, not as medical advice. Patient details have been kept general to protect privacy.

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain errors, especially in names and Chinese terms.

Toby: Warren Sheir welcome to our show Office Hours. thanks so much for coming on.

Warren: You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

Toby: Thanks for saying that. if you'd if you don't mind, could you give a little bit of your professional background for some of our listeners that might not be familiar with your work? And if could somehow lead it into your book, Ancient Wisdom, Modern Kitchen. So if you can incorporate that in your bio, i if you don't mind.

Warren: Yeah, so started my Chinese medicine education 1995, moved to San Diego to Pacific College. And by I actually before I came from a background of macrobiotics. This is when I was undergraduate, which I don't recommend. But

Toby: Too strict? It's too strict, Warren, or what? Okay, yeah.

Warren: Yeah, but I was in my twenties. Yeah. So that's like sort of like being religious in your twenties, you know. I you know, I shed that after maybe five or six years, I became of like the energetics of food at that point, even though I don'think a lot of what they teach is necessarily accurate. some of the framework is. and of course the yin and the yang temperatures, things like that. They don't exactly not exactly like we would learn in traditional Chinese medicine, but the ideas were there. So I came in with that background a pretty strong background in that. I studied with Michokushi in Boston and other people in the borough, also. And I took it very seriously when I was younger, and then I just as seriously dropped it. But always kept a sense of eating good clean food. Which course could mean different things to different people, but we'll get into that.

Toby: Yeah. Well what does that mean to you now? I think that might be valuable for us to know. What does eating good clean food mean to you now? Well

Warren: Well okay, so now it means whole foods whenever possible, foods whenever possible. I a mixture of like lots of different of vegetables, some whole grains, some I guess I would call them sort of clean animal products, like f wild fish. I do eat pastured chicken. I don't actually haven't not eaten red meat in many years. Occasionally I'll lamb. Take it like a year. So I'm not like dogmatic or religious about it. It just how things have happened. So that's that and then I just also don't overeat anymore at all ever. how do I stray from that or whatever? And I don't. Okay. That's the thing. I mean, I was my partner, she eats chocolate, good quality dark chocolate. I was doing that for a And I don't anymore. I just sort of eat simple foods. I'll have porridge in the morning and we do a lot of soups, stews.

Toby: Even in the summer?

Warren: Yeah. we have we have a garden in the back. So she she grows greens, different greens, beet greens, a lot of Japanese greens, brunamis things like that. And she actually grew up on an on an organic farm. Her dad is originally from Japan and he's a scientist, but they decided to become sort of like weekend farmers in rural Canada, north of Toronto. And he had this large, it's the largest garden I've ever seen. Has to be like a I don't know, half an acre or something. It's big. Yeah, it'still there. And so she grew up eating like, you know, kabocha and Japanese greens and all these fresh vegetables. So we've brought that into our current diet, all the these things. we do of vegetables, and that's the summer thing. And then

Toby: Do

Warren: You know, occasionally I'm I'm I you know, they say in Chinese medicine, don't eat cold, raw foods. don't buy that at all in the summer.

Toby: Right. When San Diego in the summer, that's that's probably all right, huh?

Warren: Yeah, that's just like it's like I don't get religious about these things at all.

Toby: Uh-huh. I think I think that's an important message, right? Is like you we have some guidelines but not you know yeah. You that term orthorexia? That means like you're so strict eating that you make yourself sick. Like is that apple organic? you know, you're just scared of food and you're scared of things and yeah, so I feel

Warren: No, what is that? Like it is.

Toby: That yeah, but that maybe you started out a little bit like that. so now the pendulum swung into the middle with w it's just such a sweet spot to be in.

Warren: Yeah, and I'm that way with patients too. I mean I don't it's like you can't beat people with a stick, so you know. So yeah, so th so I still eat simply it probably more than ever now. and I don't really I don't cheat or whatever. I don't have ice cream or been My sin is do coffee. Which is not it's not probably not good for me because it's I think it's drying. Yeah. And I'm getting older and I'm getting drier. Okay.

Toby: All right.

Angelique: But coffee'so good. My sin too.

Warren: Yes, it is. I'm not giving it up.

Angelique: Okay.

Toby: I try and move a lot of my dry patients from like half a cup of coffee to like five cups of tea. And that seems like it goes okay. No, doesn't it doesn't work for you, Dr. Sheer?

Warren: I tried that. Yeah, but I sip it. No, it doesn't work. but yeah, it doesn't work for me. But I do sip the coffee. So my first cup, which is I'll have in the morning, it'll last for two hours.

Toby: Okay, yeah, that's that's all right.

Warren: Yeah. So I think these I think there'something, at least from my experience, qualitatively different about sipping something than about guzzling it down. Yeah. Same true for food, I think.

Toby: Yeah. Yeah, the body has time to integrate what you're putting in rather than just yeah, big chunk coming. Yeah, that makes sense.

Warren: And that's another thing I've done over the last few years is just eaten more slowly, which I recommend to patients always. If you can

Toby: You have any tips for that? You know, because I think people have that idea. have that idea.

Warren: Somebody should create an eating app like they have meditation apps.

Toby: Yeah. Like you could you could have a little gong.

Warren: Like a breathing app, like one, two, three, four, five, chew. Yeah.

Toby: Yeah. That's all right.

Warren: I don't I mean I just I don't know, I just gently try to suggest that as I do to myself. 'cause my mother used to say, Chew your food. And I didn't.

Toby: Okay. All right. But you finally got around to taking that advice. That's fantastic. What about what led you to writing your book?

Warren: No I do. Yeah. yeah, so there was a need. I mean, first of all, that's that's a really good question. this goes back God, it goes back to like 2005. And I had been out of school and I'd been teaching for five years at that point at Pacific since 2000. And everybody there, all students ate pretty crappy food. I mean, there were exceptions because it'Southern California. But I mean like there were machines in the student lounge with any I mean you name it candy, potato there wasn't anything healthy at that.

Toby: No miso soup dispensing.

Warren: No, no seaweed. And these are things by the way I still eat miso soup and seaweed. But anyhow, so just horrible people just, you know, just mindless. Nobody really took the students really didn'take care of their health. And I guess maybe at that point I was a little judgmental about that, less certainly more so than it would be now. But I thought, okay, here's there's a need for really exploring how do we get people patients and practitioners to become more of just good food, good diet. And I noticed, you know, there were books out there like Paul Pitchford's book. What's that what is that book again?

Toby: Yeah.

Warren: But he but I don't really think he had a legitimate background in Chinese medicine. And there weren't any recipes in there that were like usable. I'll just take the this, mix it with that, cook it. I think, you know, in of like cooking, you need, at least I need, and I think most people need a very step by step process to and so to effectively create the food, right? If you want to make it taste good.

Toby: Yeah.

Warren: So that was really the goal was creating recipes and make it to the practitioner, but also to the patient. Yeah, I think it only touches the surface in some ways, but that was the start. And then we went the conventional route. And so we got a co came up with a book proposal first, found a representative, what do you call them? A agent. Yeah, we got an agent. And that was a whole process that took months because he had to send them a whole bit from the book, and which they you know, like 40 pages or whatever. And then and then eventually the agent found us a couple different publishers.

Angelique: Agent.

Warren: And this was a slow process. And we just took we took the publisher that gave us the largest advance.

Toby: A pretty good metric.

Warren: It is, except for the other publisher was like was more adept at like I think it was Twelve Speed Press or something. Yeah, that was the one we didn't use. no. And they're more adept at cookbooks. So I don't know. It is what it is at this point. So it was what it was. So yeah. So that was the process. And then having to like God, countless we had to test to and taste every recipe. So we I think we did

Toby: They're great. Yeah.

Warren: Every recipe three or four different times to make sure it was really down.

Toby: That sounds delicious. It seems like you're complaining about that. That sounds delicious.

Warren: It's a lengthy pro a l a lengthy, delicious process.

Toby: Yeah, that's that's what the your book is a perennial favorite in my waiting room. I think that's why because people really like their recipes and they especially like the index in the back. So they you know they can look up something that's going on with them. They have a common cold or yeah, they have a little bit of constipation, and then you even have one of your index ones is like for your beauty. That's been really popular, those recipes.

Warren: From those are from Yuan Wang, the she's actually she was a senior doc at Chengdu. great. Probably before you were there for a little bit, right?

Toby: Yeah. I was there in two thousand two. Yeah.

Warren: And she was there in the nineties and she was a senior doc there. And she I mean, she's from Chengdu.

Toby: You're lucky every recipe wasn't hot pot.

Warren: Okay. I've been to her house countless times for hot pots. So that's another one of my that I probably eat too much of is spicy food. Okay. But that's whole other thing. Sichuan food especially.

Toby: Okay, yeah. Okay, well you look really well, so you're you're you're weathering that heat pretty well. Yeah.

Warren: Yeah, I take I do take care of myself. I can I can say that I actually do. yeah, so that's that was the process and Yuan was is a wealth of information in terms of knowledge about especially foods from China and the nature, the taste, temperature of the different foods. And

Toby: Warren, if you don't mind. I know there's there'sometimes a little bit of controversy. I know from my own experience looking at the different texts, like the nature of the food, especially like it like the Materia Medica is pretty well set, right? Bo He's always gonna be cool, right? Fu Zi is always gonna be hot. But I know for food there'some there's there'sometimes some from different texts. How did you guys navigate that? Yeah.

Warren: So I think what I did or we did is just go with a Chinese source it.

Toby: But even sometimes those conflict, right? Yeah.

Warren: And then just the sphincter in the lower burner.

Toby: I think I think I'm talking what you're talking about, but so you guys tried to just be not get too uptight about making sure you had it exactly right. If it was slightly cool or cool, you guys just went Okay, right. But I think

Warren: Yeah, whatever. You know, it's just like i usually it does it really matter. I mean, because you know if you have a like formulas, right? You're gonna have a formula with seven herbs on it in it and it's gonna clear heat, and there's gonna be an herb in there that'slightly warm and shitty than what it is, you know, so

Toby: This is how we started talking about that pendulum swinging, right? So it is really nice to get something closer to the middle.

Warren: Yeah. That's yeah, that's that's really it. So didn't obsess about the did our best. Yeah. And then just like let it go.

Toby: Yeah, anyway, every when I was looking through your book, everything you know, just before this I was looking through everything looked reasonable to me, right? That's that's my sense about the temperatures, about the natures too. So

Warren: Yeah, and we went to a number of different sources. And then I was just like, Well, okay, this. Yeah. Well, what did you do in your app? I mean that's

Toby: Yeah, that was difficult. How I got around that, the app itself, I made it editable. So like if you really think that watermelon is not cold, which almost every source I had said cold, you could change it to slightly warm. Watermelon could be slightly warm. And then it will that will f that's in the app now a as slightly warm, and then all your dietary recommendations and everything like that will follow it as a slightly warm really

Warren: Are there sources that actually say it'slightly warm or

Toby: No, but I'm I'm saying just as an example, right? Because there were so many different conflicting things, I thought, well, the way to get around that is someone feels really strongly that their tradition wants to say it's this, then they can do that in the app itself. So that was my way of getting around it.

Warren: Yeah, and actually the slightly I think is good because slightly warm or slightly cold is like close to neutral and it's often jumps the fence.

Toby: Yeah. It Chinese medicine loves that kinda wiggle room like that too, so I like that.

Warren: Also not being rigid, I mean that's the whole It's amazing that there were three authors, Yuan, me, and Mika. And we really there was no little to no It was really interesting 'cause you expect conflict, think, and old and it was just like, you know, we s we still go to Yuan's house for like lunch or dinner and yeah, years later, yeah.

Toby: Nice. But that's nice. Everyone kinda had their own tranche and then and brought it all together for the book then, huh?

Warren: Yeah, and I what's the word? I mean, I so respect her wealth breadth of that it was just like, okay, you know, I don't don't need to like stick my ego in there.

Toby: Okay, that this is like a smart way of navigating it.

Warren: It is, yeah. and it's kept me in this my relationship with Mika for all these years too.

Toby: Okay, nice. I was gonna ask you about clinical question if I can. what about have you ever seen something where we thought, I'm gonna definitely need herbs for this, for a case? And then just by dietary recommendations you were able to pull things around? anything like that come to mind?

Warren: Yeah, I mean the first thing that comes to mind is like spleen deficiency diarrhea. And congee like you know, slightly so like I don't know, what would be representative formula for that? Shenling baizhu san right? gens ginsen and poren intractylotus, right? And so that would be spleen deficiency diarrhea, but instead I like to give a congee And put in the con put like herbs in there like I don't know. Like well definitely fu ling yi ren lotus seed, lian zi qian shi like urealis, fox nuts, yeah. And just make a congee out of it, and that's worked.

Toby: Okay. But that's great. So that's kind of straddling it, right? You're taking the congee from the food world. And I mean there I know there's no fixed line between the two, but anyways. Yeah, food grade herbs. it's interesting. I have a patient that just cannot digest any herbs. but then gave her the fox nuts the qian shi and so she can do that, right? Because it's it'so food grade. And she'she's able to maintain her you know, she d she just massive diarrhea problems. And so with just that single food grade herb, she's able to do it.

Warren: Those are fruit herbs, so yeah.

Toby: So I think that it is a nice way of doing it, right? For especially the really sensitive patients, then get closer to the food grade kind of

Warren: Yeah. And of course, yeah, the for a l this my experience is that keep it simple these kind of spleen deficient herb sensitive patients, you know, not to like throw fourteen things at them for because it can overwhelm the digestion very easily.

Toby: Yeah. Okay. That sounds like a good strategy. my colleague Angelique, I'm just constantly trying to talk her into to prescribing more nutrition for her patients. She stopped listening to me a while ago about that. Warren, could you take a swing at it? trying to talk Angelique into prescribing more nutrition for her patients. Okay, please do.

Warren: It's hard to proselytize. Yeah, I mean it's it's challenging, you know. I mean it's it's important. Because thing obviously it's hard change somebody's diet. You know, they who I don't know who said it's like changing somebody's religion.

Toby: Ooh. What? said, Ooh, that it does feel like that sometimes, yeah.

Warren: Yeah, but without the atta if people take one step forward and two and sometimes three steps back their diet. Yeah. And so even sometimes baby steps with the diet can really make a difference. Just adding something or having them what's a good one, just like a good warm breakfast kind of a thing. can make a difference, but the it's the one step forward and two steps back that I think is and I and do you use herbs or

Angelique: Yes. I'm I'm I am eighteen months into practice I've just and I opened my own practice and so that whole drinking from a fire hose from school has continued as I learned to run a business and treat patients all by myself. And nutrition, yeah. I mean I've I know how important it is. And I've also seen how challenging it's been with patients. It's a there's low hanging fruit, you know, if someone's drinking ice water and eating ice cream three times a day, like obviously I don't just be like, No problem, you know. And Send them on their way. But when it comes to being knowledgeable, it's a gap, you know, in my own personal education. I have your book. recommended reading.

Warren: It's a gap in the education.

Angelique: Yeah. It was a very short course.

Warren: Yeah, because it's like I was just thinking this morning that like Western Medical School is the same way. Yeah. I mean, how many classes on nutrition do they have? Yeah.

Angelique: Probably not enough. Just like us, you know.

Warren: So yeah, I can't it's hard to proselytize.

Angelique: Look at his inspiration. Inspire.

Warren: It's it's I mean, it's guess maybe the best thing is if you can actually take baby steps towards doing it and then have some success and have that sort of like you can feed on that.

Angelique: Yeah. know, I ha I did this has happened a couple of times. I've had I've had patients shift their diet. I've got them on board and been like, look, let's just do this. So I had one person who was like very phlegmy and so dairy, so much cold food. And so she quit for like a month's time. We did some alternatives, did nut based dairy, you know, things like nut milks and stuff like that. She got so much better. And when she hit the end of that 30 days, right back into it. Just like went right back and I was god. Yeah, just loved the ice cream so much, loved the regular milk so much. And it was just like and it's almost like she had amnesia about how much better she was doing without that too. So, know. I'm sure do.

Warren: I feel your pain. There you know there's it's it's it's challenging, that's all though.

Toby: Yeah. In her defense, cheese is delicious. sure. in her defense, cheese is delicious.

Angelique: Please. It was ice cream for this person. She I mean the ice cream was I agree. And

Toby: But that's also delicious.

Warren: It's like I called that the triple yin. The triple yin cold, it's dairy, it'sugar, it's yeah, it's just And it's delicious.

Toby: Yeah.

Angelique: Yes, of course. I'm gonna steal that from you. you got the triple yin disease. Okay, let's work on that together. I've people add, like, okay, if you're gonna have yogurt in the morning, like add some cinnamon, you know. Yeah, add something more.

Warren: Yeah, see that's a good one. I was actually gonna into that a little bit of just adding the warming spices, you know. Ginger. I mean, I was doing that for myself years ago actually when I was in school, because I was like a digestive what was I doing that point? I was drinking some kind of a cold beverage with spirulina. Yeah, exactly. Cold. and

Toby: That's really cold.

Warren: I got just horrible indigestion. It's first term at Pacific. And what helped that was I continued doing the spirulina, but I added ginger and cortex, you know, rou gui And it actually helped. And I stopped doing it because I learned more. It's like, yeah, this is not good for my constitution, but the warming spices are a good thing.

Toby: So cinnamon, fresh ginger, anything else that you that people you it I think I think we want to tap into like your clinical knowledge, right? What have you recommended that people take on or stick to?

Warren: Well, yeah, so Well, the warm breakfast for sure. and know, I try not to like at least initially take away too much. Yeah. But thing that one thing I do like to take away is the cold food. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's that I really believe is injurious. What else?

Angelique: Except in summer, cold foods okay.

Warren: In the summer, yeah. But in you know, everything in balance, right? Yeah.

Toby: But me yeah, maybe first meal of the day, right? Do you think it'something worse than raisin bran with cold milk on it? Yeah.

Warren: That's yeah, that's that, yeah. Just substitute it. I mean, not gonna have like miso soup or something. Yeah. But certainly some kind of porridge. I mean, I myself I do steel cutoats. Easily done in a instant pot where you just like set it up. I put what do I put there? Some warming cinnamon I put in there, warming spices, goji berries. great. So that's a simple thing to give people to really make a difference initially. Especially in the instant pot.

Toby: And they may feel something right away, right? If they go from cold raisin bran with milk to hot pot, excuse me, instapot congee, right? They may they may feel different quickly. Is you think that's true and you th you think that's motivating for them?

Warren: Sometimes. least for the first month.

Toby: Okay, all right. You got patients like Angeliques that they feel a bit they feel like a million bucks and then they're like, okay, well that month is over.

Warren: And then, you know, sometimes you really don't know what they're doing also, you know.

Toby: That's what they report certain things.

Warren: A great story is that the we I had this patient taking herbs supposedly every week in bag of herbs, right? Every week, And I forget the chief complaint was. I it was a long time ago. And then the roommate in.

Angelique: Yeah.

Warren: And

Toby: She had a small apothecary at her house.

Warren: Yeah. The roommate said, I don't know, what's this pile of white doing on my kitchen counter? There's like fourteen of them. So the one guy was like buying the herbs but not cooking them, just stacking them like

Angelique: That's an expensive charade, you know.

Warren: Yeah, I but who knows how common that is. I don't know.

Toby: To cook someday. Yeah.

Warren: I mean I think it was a UCS D student and I think not from this country and maybe it was is I need to please the doctor syndrome. Yeah. Possibly. Culturally.

Angelique: That makes sense.

Warren: Yeah.

Toby: It's been a little bit more than fifteen years since you published a book. Anything you know, you change your mind on about since then, something you wish you would have put in or taken out. you have any sense about that?

Warren: Yeah, I wish I had created an app to go with it.

Toby: That would that would that would have closed off my lane. but that would have I got I got pl I don't have a shortage of ideas, so I would have gone into something else.

Warren: Yeah, but that's that was that's probably, you know, I also wish that we collectively had the energy to like do what we intended was create a website with the whole recipes.

Angelique: It's not too late for that.

Toby: Yeah.

Warren: Well, it's too late. Okay.

Angelique: Okay.

Toby: The reci the recipe's only available in your book? There's no online

Warren: Okay. Well we just we ran out of gas and Nika changed j couple jobs a couple of times and we moved twice and just you know life shifts. Yeah.

Toby: Yeah.

Warren: And then other stuff happened and we just don't have the bandwidth really to do that, but somebody should. And I like a just a whole god, I the Eastern Nutrition class of Pacific for a number of years, and the one of the pro school projects was to create a recipes on my 'cause it's all on a hard drive now. So it'still there. Yeah. Well I wish we had done that. Yeah.

Toby: We could have an intrepid colleague reach out to you to put that out there.

Warren: I would give it away. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, so that's what else would I have done differently? Probably lower my expectations.

Toby: Yeah, nice.

Warren: Well, I mean they're they're they're about actually making a difference with you know, it'so hard to make a difference with diet. You know, it just it's painfully difficult. so in that sense. Everybody would be like me. Okay. It's like in some ways. I mean, God forbid, but in the way of like, you know, you know, I'm actually even though sort of a wild and crazy guy, i it's not it's not hard. For me to like stop eating something or except for coffee. And that's pretty much it. You know, other than that, it's like, okay, I'll do it. Or to start eating at something. I could just do it. And not everybody's like that.

Toby: This may be comforting to you though, because so many of my patients have gotten your book and cooked several of the recipes out of it. That's I mean, at least anecdotally I'm hearing about you know, that your book is making impact on my patients. So I think you know, there's there'significant impact, right? We Yeah.

Warren: That's that's really good to know. I mean really. You know, 'cause I th I sometimes I reflect why am I doing all this? You know, yeah, I mean we all reflect in that way somehow. But there is that sort of, I guess, a ripple effect that goes on that you know w that's that's nice to know.

Toby: Yeah, I heard I heard this you can never measure the impact of a book. You know, it just goes out and out and then you can never measure where it stops, right? Because then that person might make that recipe and then share it with their friend. You it may just ripple out forever. meal is opportunity enhance degrade your health. And so, you know. And so each time that people choose the yeah, know, to not degrade their health but enhance it with a meal, then that's good. And then your book really gives a nice clean framework. And, you know, I it like you said, it's hard to change like changing someone's religion is like changing their diet. So it's it's nice to have something, you know, your book's and organized well. So it's you know, that's they have a framework where they could kind of do that

Warren: I think another thing that just came to mind around that is I think I would have gotten into more like the idea of mindful eating more because I think that'so important like slowing down eating at the same time every day much not overeating and Slow really slowing down and breathing and chewing, that kind of making it a more of a personal ritual. with think gratitude also. Yeah. Like a sense of this is just my personal ethos, of connectedness to the food and appreciation for where it came from, who grew it, does that make sense at all or

Toby: Yeah. And that doesn't sound like a personal ethos. That sounds like biology and physics, right? Yeah, that you to stay alive you have to have these people helping you to get this food. You know, so I think it just that's reality. So I think yeah, a little nod to reality I think is that's that's a nice way to eat.

Angelique: Particularly in the distracted world we live in. Where everyone has a screen or something

Warren: Yeah, you know, and walking around eating and you know, talking on the phone and you know, you don't have a phone, but you know not gonna ever eat while you're on the phone.

Toby: That's right. That's a that's one safe thing for me. I was just envisioning anyone who was listening to this show or watching this show continuing their meal right now. so

Warren: Well I always joke with my students like I on Zoom, but it's like another eating and I'll I'll talk about whatever it is, spleen deficiency and indigestion and it's just like and don't don't eat while you're driving, don't eat while you're in herb class, etc. But you know, also walking around and also the idea of eating communally, which I really think important. That's a personal ethos.

Toby: What about eating community? What can you unpack that a little bit?

Warren: There's value to that like as in a social setting sharing food at that's my personal experience and i recommend that to patients i mean obviously if you live alone and you don't have any friends it's not very but it but it is a way of sort of like sort of sharing the experience

Toby: Yeah, it seems like we've been eating communally for so long too, that it's just it's a recent thing that we just yeah, look at a screen and eat that's

Warren: See I don't have a television. You don't have a phone, I don't have a television.

Toby: Yeah. I don't have either one, Warren. So you're not I'm still ahead of you.

Warren: My phone? I'm gonna smash.

Toby: Okay, then we'll be even. Good. Warren, thanks so much for spending a little bit of time with Angelique and in Office Hours. And I really recommend everyone check out your book. thanks so much for your time, Warren. Thanks. Real pleasure. Thank you.

Warren: Pleasure meeting you both. It's great.