Office Hours with Angelique and Toby. Released June 12, 2026. 41 minutes.
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About this episode
Acupuncturist and author Ellen Goldsmith discusses the role of food in healing and prevention. She describes how her practice evolved from shiatsu to Chinese dietetics, her years teaching health self-care, and why she wrote a book on Chinese food principles with accessible recipes.
She explains how seasonality shapes what and when we eat, the place of condiments, flavor, and texture, and quick cooking methods suited to each season, with practical suggestions for spring foods such as asparagus, nettles, radishes, fermented greens, and rhubarb. She also talks about why practitioners should deepen their own understanding before advising patients about food.
Topics
From shiatsu to Chinese dietetics
Teaching health self-care
Prevention as the core of Chinese medicine
Seasonal eating: who and when
Spring foods: asparagus, nettles, radishes, rhubarb
Building competence before giving dietary advice
A note for listeners: this is a conversation among practitioners, offered for education, not as medical advice. Patient details have been kept general to protect privacy.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain errors, especially in names and Chinese terms.
Toby: Ellen Goldsmith, thanks so much for joining us on Office Hours.
Ellen: Thank you for having me, Toby. So you'd like to know who I am, I guess. So
Toby: Yes. Yes. we'really excited to have you here. if you wouldn't mind for our listeners, if you could give like a little bit of your professional background and if could somehow lead it into how you wrote your book, nutritional healing with Chinese medicine.
Ellen: Absolutely. So am a licensed and board certified acupuncturist and Chinese herbalist. I've been practicing since 1999 in that aspect of the field, but I've been in the field in Asian medicine since 1983, starting out Shiatsu and a study of macrobiotics way back when, which macrobiotics for those of you don't know. was a way of eat it's a way of eating based a little bit of a topsy turvy way of looking at yin and yang. that was started by George Osawa in Japan and brought to this country. Mostly people know about it through Michio Kushi on the East Coast and Hermanahara on the West Coast. so I practice Shiatsu did that and taught for decades on health. I taught at New York University in the Tisch School of the Arts in the drama department. I started a program because drama students were burning out, so I they wanted the students to learn how to take care of themselves. So what I did was I taught about how to build body awareness, focus, energy, and bring that into their presence on the stage. It was a very covert way of lear teaching them how to care for themselves, how to eat right, how to manage their energy, et cetera. And then for twenty years I've taught at the National University of Natural Medicine's College of Classical Chinese Medicine, which was one of the first colleges of classical Chinese medicine in the country, founded by Heiner Fruhoff. Many of you might know him. And I've Chinese dietetics there for two decades, and I've taught for the Academy of Integrative Health and Medicine, teaching food energetics and Chinese dietetics to Western physicians and healthcare providers. And also teach a course online called Five Element Nutrition, which is open to anybody. We have students from all over the world. And it's a three-month intensive basically into the foundations of Chinese dietetics. So and through that all maintained a brick and practice acupuncture. I work a lot with people around really to manage their health connecting into their body, which I think acupuncture is a great therapeutic tool for You know, giving people a different sense of feeling and different sense of possibility that, you know, you can walk in one way and walk out feeling completely different and nothing has changed in your life except the flow of qi and blood in your body. You know, so that's beautiful thing and I always I love continuing to practice. And then I maintain a consultation practice as well, working with patients and practitioners who we might want to discuss some cases. So did I write a book on food? And like as I tell my students, I said, you know, people will come to you and they will come to you for acupuncture because they have a problem that they won't solve. And once they feel some symptom relief, they may leave you. know, or they may stop taking their herbs, but we never stop eating. Hopefully, and we that every day. So, in a way, that's our most powerful medicine. And the beauty of our medicine, of Chinese medicine, is it's found founded in the principles of basically prevention. know, do we manage our lifestyle? Right. And the in the NeiJing it talks about You know, why is it that people used to live to one hundred years and now they die at fifty because they don't know how to eat well, they don't sleep right, they don't move their bodies, they don't manage their stress, they drink wine like water, you know. so it's it's an age old problem with human beings. And I think it's a great entryway into connecting nature. You know, food is our connection to nature. We Eat food. Hopefully, if you're eating real food, it's grown under the sun or it's raised on the earth or in the or in the waterways. it is the way we interact with it. So we can adjust it. We can manage our chi. We can change our blood chemistry. We can change our consciousness really with our food through a to our bodies. So I think it's a marvelous entryway in most people can relate to. And I wrote the So that it would be accessible to anybody who was interested in health and had some little curiosity about Chinese medicine. I wrote it for students of Chinese medicine who wanted to learn about dietetics. And I wrote it for my patients. And really, in a way that you could enter the book at any point, whether you enter it learning about the foundations of Chinese medicine, the foundations of dietetics, seasonal eating. how to set up your kitchen, right? You know, a lot of people are intimidated and don't know how do I cook even? What do I have in my pantry? Like how do I do that? So giving people a guide to that, you know, so it's doable and accessible. And then I along with my recipe co-developer, we developed a hundred and seventy five recipes according to the season. So you can not even read the book and cook seasonally and learn about the foods through you can learn about the health tips of the food, you know, what are the energetics of the food? What why is that food in recipe? I'll you'll some culinary tips. And you each we wanted to make was, you know, had a lot of flavor, a lot of interest. It's not just Chinese. I'm not Chinese, obviously. but You know, the beauty of our medicine again is it's translatable across all culture, right? Because it's founded in nature. And nature is universal. I mean, it's a it's a real kind of strange idea that we're all different. We have different cultures, we have live in different climates, we have different of functioning in our in our daily lives, but we're all human, we all live on this planet. And you know, I thought seasonal eating was a great way to enter it. And then in the book also I the urging of Sabine Wilms, Sabine Wilms, who's a PhD in classical Chinese medicine, I have a chapter on blood tonic recipes for postpartum post surgery, and then another small chapter on condiments, you know, how can you make your food, your dishes a little bit more palatable? How can you bring more flavor in? because condiments in Chinese are a way to do that. Increase the digestibility, increase the palatability, know, bring a little bit of magic into a meal. And it's a great way to cook a meal for many people and have different condiments so people can adjust foods. you know, I have a big passion for food because we all eat and we're all experts in eating. figure we're things that don't serve us well, but you know, most people like to eat. and So yeah, so that's that's me. That's where I s my kind of short story of the long road to hear. Okay.
Toby: Yeah, that's a great framework for us and everything. And you touched on the two things I really liked about your book. You really addressed the who and the when aspect. The who being like, you know, you have constipation or something like that. But also I really like that little section you had on there, what type of cook are you? You right? To really orient people about how they're gonna start approaching things. And my personal favorite, and then they this always cut off usually is the when aspect, right? What's what's happening climatically, what's happening with the season. right now we're late May, about to go to June. What kind of individual foods, what kind of recipes maybe from your book, are you recommending to people in general?
Ellen: Well, I always recommend number one, go to your if you can, if you have access to a local farmers markets because you'll see foods there that you may not see n see in your supermarket. right now, especially well, on the West Coast and on the East Coast. I was just, of course, in Western Mass where you have Hadley asparagus. and is a great cooling food. It of helps get rid of built up heat in the body. And So there's a lovely risotto recipe that I use asparagus and nettles. We're little past the nettle season, but nettles are a wonderful spring food, early spring food that are really rich in iron. It's very good for the liver, blood cleansing. It's also a natural antihistamine. So that's a lovely way to do it. I take you know, spring radishes are out and It's interesting because on the East Coast, where I am now, it's a little bit different than what I just left in Portland, Oregon. but there were some beautiful different kinds, all different kinds of radishes. And radishes are like a pungent food, so they'really great for kind of breaking up congestion in the body or, you know, built up winter heat or fats, et cetera. And so they're kind of spicy, right? But they're also lovely when you steam them. So I have this very simple, very simple recipe where I the radishes that I cut them in half. I have some cauliflower florets, and then I take the greens, the radish top greens, which are a little bit spicy, you have to wash them really well because they're usually quite muddy. and you wash them really well, you pat them dry, and then you mix in some sea salt with them, you cut chop them up. And you mix in sea salt and you kind of massage them like the way people massage a kale salad, until it gets shiny and a little wet, and you just let it sit for about you can even let it sit overnight. And what it does is does light ferment. So you have kind of steam, very simple, where the radishes turn almost sweet, like the way Daikon radish will do that when you cook it. And the cauliflower, of course, is a little bit fragrant, but also kind of sweet. And then you put this, you know, this kind of lightly fermented spicy green on top. And it's just a very nice way to get a little bit of a surprise in a vegetable dish. And spring-like. know, chives, garlic chives, spring chives, of course, again have that kind of pungent upward motion of you know, coming out the earth and also moving. Pungent is a flavor in Chinese dietetics that, of course, we use it in herbalism as well, that it rises and brings things to the surface, is a great energy of spring, right? Spring is about, you rising up, growing, bursting And so it's a beautiful kind of metaphor, but also true in its food action, to bring in little bit more flavor. You can chop up chives and put it on steamed rice if you have that. you can mix it in a light kind of salad dressing,
Toby: Corners the corners of my mouth were starting to get a little moist as you were talking about all that. So hope you're not seeing that on camera too well.
Ellen: And then one of my favorite recipes in my book, in the spring book, in spring section, is baked And rhubarb is vegetable, but we mostly know it as like a strawberry rhubarb pie. That's a very kind of common American dish. but what I do is I take some white grape juice, which is high in sugar, of and rhubarb is very sour. And I chop up the rhubarb into about two to three inch pieces, put them in this mixture of white grape juice, some honey and some cinnamon ginger, and then cover it with foil, put it in a baking pan, and cover it with foil and put it into the oven and bake it at 350. And the nice thing about it is that, you know, most of the time when we cook rhubarb, it kind of dissolves and becomes like an applesauce. You but this you keep the shape of the rhubarb. There's an integrity to it that makes it gives it a different mouthfeel. And mouthfeel is very important in our food preferences. and you that's one of in Chinese cuisine, a very important part of the cuisine. What is the mouthfeel? What's the texture? Having different textures in a meal can really satisfy us as eating. So You know, these are just a little bit some ideas. think the thing in spring is we want to lift our energy up so we don't want to cook things long and slow. We want to do more stir fries or quick sautés. of course, are always great because they're so hydrating and nourishing, an easy way for people to get really deep nourishment. And So those are just, you know, some ideas and we wanna ha use herbs. We wanna use different herbs and spices, not in the spicy sense, but in the sense that it awakens your senses because we really the medicine starts when we smell. Mm. You know, my Chinese teachers would say to me, you know, the medicine starts when you smell the herbs cooking in the kitchen, right? In the old days when all of us used to do raw herbs and you know, before granules kind of came into the picture. that's the medicine starting. So that kind of aromatic kind of food, herbs that we can add to our dishes, you know, really activate our digestion, work on our middle jiao and make delicious. that's the only way we're gonna eat well is if the food is delicious.
Toby: Yeah, that's true. And that just reminded me, just last week I had a patient that we were cooking herbs for. that was gonna be a patient later. And we were able to cook the herbs. We do raw herbs at my at my office. And it was just so great. The whole office just had that really beautiful smell. So I'm gonna try and do that a little bit more often. Angelique doesn't do much recommendations of dietary recommendations for her patients. I wonder if you could talk her into it.
Ellen: Mm-hmm.
Angelique: Well, I can tell you why.
Ellen: Was just really curious what keeps you from doing that.
Angelique: Because don't feel so we had a single like part semester course in Chinese nutrition. And haven't I we went through it and it was in the tumult. I'm about I'm seventeen months into practice. wow, so I'm a newer practitioner and so I haven't circled back. I have your book. It was one of the recommended readings for the nutrition class. So I like leafing through it, but I haven't dove into it enough to feel like I have the competence and the like the way that you speak, it is so clear that it's part of you. You know? And I would love to be able to speak from that space or at least fifty percent of that space if I'm gonna be giving recommendations to folks. So I just need to deep dive it again.
Ellen: You know, absolutely. I mean, this is a question I get a lot, Angelique, from practitioners both in our field in Chinese medicine and also Western doctors. You know, look, we all want to help people and we want to give them good advice so that they make good choices. But always say, physician, heal thyself. Do deep dive. And as of my wonderful dance teachers many years ago said to me,
Angelique: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: Do not noise your fortune abroad. Do not noise your fortune abroad. What does that mean? That means let the fortune rise in and kind of seep into your body. Let you have the experience of what it does for you, what you discover, what you learn about yourself, what you start to observe in yourself. And don't worry about your patience. And then you can start to observe it in your patience. You can start to ask them questions, you know, and be curious about, well, you know, Just asking them, you know, you feel hot? I think a great way to start is, you know, are you hot or cold? You know, it's one of our 10 questions, right? And you could say, well, what kind of foods do you like to eat? You know, do you like spicy food? You know. mean, the simplest thing you can do with somebody like that who's maybe hot and irritable and has that kind of liver qi kind of you know, is and if they like lot of spicy food, is to cut those things back, you know. But first work on yourself, discover what it is, discover what it isn't, and then you can take that out into the world. I think we're in such a rush to help others that sometimes we f we forget about ourselves. So it's you know, it's a beautiful way to increase power of observation internally. and attune ourselves to our environment and to the impact and feeling sense, you know, really feeling sense in the body of how food makes us feel. And I'm, you know, and really, I mean, I really think food needs to make us feel like when we eat, we enjoy it. It goes down well. It doesn't get we don't feel bloated or gassy or anything like that. And then we have energy. to forth, you know, and then we get hungry and then we eat again, you know. So it's I think we can be patient with the process and not be in a hurry to kind of help everybody, but just to learn about it for ourselves. And I think when you hear it in me, I think it's because that's what I've been doing for 40 years. You know, I'm older, so you know, I've been doing this a long time. And I think in the beginning I was maybe a little bit more I was really enthusiastic and I was kind of prescriptive a and now I realize, you know, food is a complex thing for people. It's emotional, it's cultural. It's cultural not only in the culture that of origin that we may come from, but it's the culture of our family. You know, how did our family deal with food? Was there food? Was there tension at the dinner table? You know, there'so many different elements. Were we made to eat things we didn't like? You know, all these kinds of things play into it. So I think the more we can explore it in ourselves and the more we become comfortable with just observing and knowing what it is without judgment and attachment, the easier it is for us to help people step by step, inch by inch, you know, it's because changes Everybody wants to change like know right away, you know. but change is such a process. And sometimes it's three steps forward and two steps back and then ten steps back, and it's it's okay. You know, it's just if we can if you can be someone's guide and acknowledge and kind of help them connect to what's working and what isn't, I think we do ourselves and our patients a great service. You know, to be human is it's quite a task.
Angelique: Sure is. Thank you for that beautiful reorientation that really nicely.
Ellen: Okay, great. I'm so happy. Yeah, so explore it and let me know. Or you can always shout out with questions and stuff. I'm happy to I'm always happy to engage and talk to people. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Angelique: Thank you. Of the practitioners that you are in contact with, how many how many of us are new to the medicine versus how many are the seasoned ones that come for the case consultations?
Ellen: Not working with that many practitioners. You know, sometimes I work with like medical doctors and that's really tricky because if you don't know the medicine, again, you're looking for the prescription. and it's hard to do that without the foundations. so I'm not working with that many practitioners right now, like on case studies specifically. When I teach my graduate students in the class
Angelique: Right. Yeah.
Ellen: College of Classical Chinese Medicine, we will do case studies and explore that. But they're new, you know, they're not even out yet. And then in the online course I get different people from different, you know, they're acupuncturists, they're medical doctors, they're Shiatsu practitioners, they're Qi Gong practitioners. So it's a quite it's a big mix of people, yeah.
Angelique: That's really great. I'm I'm heartened to know that there are medical doctors that are also seeking out your and knowledge. I had a very recent encounter with a doctor in my own life where you know it's people do they just want to prescribe medication, prescribe medication. And so I was like, What? But there must be other things. And this doctor who is a doll of a person was like, I'm not your wellness coach, I'm your doctor. Literally said to me. I was like, Clutch my pearls, you it's like, my goodness.
Ellen: Yeah, I mean it's tricky. I mean I feel for the medical doctors these days. I mean, they're in such a bind if they're working under the insurance thing is really hard. But I do wanna give a really big shout to Dr. David Eisenberg. Do you know him? No. Dr. David Eisenberg is out of Harvard. He's a medical doctor in the Harvard the Chant School of Public Health. He was One of the first people in the nineties that did a big study on the out-of-pocket costs that Americans spend on alternative healthcare. And it was like back then, 30 years ago, it was like $3.5 billion out of pocket. And that was homeopathy, acupuncture, massage, et cetera, et cetera. And he has started a program called Healthy Kitchens, Healthy Lives. he's been doing it for I think a couple of decades. And He does it and when I first heard about it, I was curious like why culinary medicine, like, huh? You know, why are the medical doctors quote using this? But he credits it all to Chinese medicine. He was when he was very young, he was very interested in food and he ended going to Harvard and he went to the medical school and he still was curious, like, why aren'they talking about food? And then an acupuncturist came, this was in the 70s, acupuncturist came and talked about Chinese medicine, and he became incredibly curious and on to study Mandarin and went and was one of the first eight white medical in China just after Mao died, after the Cultural Revolution ended in 1978. And he studied for a number of months acupuncture, herbs, tai chi. Cooking, very interested in cooking. he offers a program for Western medical professionals called Kitchens, Loves, every year at the Culinary Institute of America. And he always starts the program out with talking about the Neijing and just what I talked about at the opening of this conversation, which is that Chinese medicine, you know, prevention is superior to cure. And prevention comes through our daily lifestyle, through mindfulness, through food, through exercise, through how we sleep, how we manage our stress, etc. And so I am constantly because he does this every time he introduces, he talks about Chinese medicine. Yet in the program he never talks about Chinese medicine. But you medical doctors doing cooking classes, you have all kinds of different people teaching as medicine in community centers and churches and schools, through the teacher TKC teaching kitchen collective. so I really want to just give him huge credit for the work that he's doing and that the work that has been done to bring more nutrition and culinary medicine into conventional medical schools. when I teach my class at college, which is unfortunately now not required any longer. It used to be required. It's part of the getting your but now because of the entry level doctorate, it's not required, so to speak. It's an elective. when I teach my class, it's very heavy hands on, experiential as well as didactic, so that people really, you know, can integrate those foundational principles in the kitchen in a way that is therapeutic, intentional specific, you know, to the condition, to the season, to the skill level, even, because there's really simple things you can do, and have very therapeutically healthful food. So I think there's a I wanna just say there is a lot going on out there, but not everybody's doing that.
Angelique: Mm. I'm glad to hear it. So you're saying you cook with your students? that'so great.
Ellen: Absolutely. How are you gonna learn about food if you don't cook?
Angelique: My goodness. Yeah.
Ellen: You can you can learn product. I mean you can learn a lot reading my book, but
Angelique: Still. How great. my goodness. We are all that would have been amazing. We're all burnt out to go into a class. We could cook and eat good food. Are you kidding? Acupuncture schools everywhere do this.
Ellen: Yes, and I and I do it with that in mind, Angelique, you know, as a restorative way, as a as an aspect of self-cultivation, really. Mm-hmm. You know, that we do it for ourselves and then we talk about how it's applicable. And I'm really, know, when we're first practicing, we're very enthusiastic. And we talk about yin and yang to our patients and everything, and they kind of nod their heads and don't know what we're talking about. You know. how do we make it doable? So like your Aunt Sally in Nebraska, who likes corn dogs, can get it, you know? And there's a way to do it. Because everyone understands when they're too hot, they understand when they're too cold. They understand when food is too bland. They understand when food is too salty, you know. So we kind of we have to meet people where they are so we can get them excited, you know, about it. Yeah. It's like why else would you do it? It's just a burden for a lot of people. I'm too busy that's like what I get. I'm too busy. I'm going, really?
Angelique: Yeah.
Toby: To see doctors, right? Because of all their problems. Yeah.
Ellen: Exactly.
Toby: Thanks for a super answer on that one. I thought you were gonna give Angelique the top three tips that you should start doing things with, but it'such a deeper answer. Thank thanks so much for that.
Angelique: Yes.
Ellen: And I can I think I did gave you a couple of tips you could do.
Toby: Yeah, no, that no that I'm saying. And you took the answer really deep, so I really appreciate that. Angelique and I are putting together a new Chinese medical school model too, and that's that's intrigues us for a nutrition class that includes cooking. That would be that would be amazing.
Ellen: Yes, I mean I think I think anything we do in Chinese medicine, the more we can bring it into our daily into daily life, whether it be through qigong practice or meditation or cooking on herbs and cooking with herbs, you know, I think the more integrated it can be, you know, into who we are and that can come forth to our patients too, you know.
Toby: Yeah, that'some the somatic learning never leaves you. You could forget the facts and things like that, but when once it's in your body, then you always have that. So yeah, I th I think that's some of the most valuable learning I've ever had is that I felt it throughout all my cells and just never forget.
Ellen: Yes. I mean I mean, how did I get into Chinese medicine? I felt it.
Toby: Yeah. Same. That was my experience too. I felt Chinese medicine, so then I didn't need a study. I didn't need a research study double blind or anything. Like I felt it in my body. So okay.
Ellen: Well, now with this study with about the interstitium, you know, like, validate it, you know, but
Toby: That's not very important to me, that validation. I'm already I know. I feel like clinic clinically validated I'm
Ellen: Exactly. Exactly. I think we forget that, you know, part of evidence based research is large swaths of populations experience, you know, anecdotal evidence is that over long periods of time is part of evidence.
Toby: You know. Say a couple of millennia. Do you feel like that's enough time, a couple of millennia? I wanted to touch back on something you said earlier, just some really pragmatic things. You were talking about in your book the extra part for postpartum and post surgery. What would about would you mind telling us like some of your basic strategies for those two conditions? can you can you speak briefly about that?
Ellen: Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, when women give birth, that's you l women lose a tremendous amount of blood. And it's an it's a very stressful event. I mean, it's a beautiful event, but it's a very stressful event, both for the in baby being born and the woman. and it's really important to rebuild our blood, our yin, because in of course in women, blood is our essence and blood yin. So we need to rebuild that. and along with that, of course, our qi. you know, we need to lift our qi up, etc. So, you know, most of those foods are kind of broths, whether it be one of them I think is, you know, cordyceps with duck, very rich, you know, tonic building food or black silky chicken, which is hard to find, but it can be found in an Asian grocery store, which is
Toby: In San Francisco it's easy to get. My teacher doctor would love that one for fertility and then postpartum too, yeah.
Ellen: So you'really looking, and you're also looking at foods that are easy to digest. That's why soups are so brilliant. or you can make kangees and add herbs to them as well. You know, goji berries, data, red dates, dang gui, different kind of configurations. I have a vegetarian cheetonic broth in that in that section. And ginger braised pork, sauteed prawns and rice wine are with garlic, ginger, and leeks. very traditional for, you know, postpartum women. yeah, so I it's really important to have these of again, easy to digest. You know, because you're tired, you know, and also to replenish the blood. dang gui and astragulus tea, of course, dang gui is the women's ginseng. It builds the blood, it moves the blood, it's warming. astragulus lifts the qi. So to bring that back, so that you know, I think need to rest. I mean, and they're not really we're not really resting because you're breastfeeding or you're dealing with breastfeeding, you're you're being up. many times in the night to feed child. so it's really important. The nourishment is really important. And of course in Chinese tradition, also in Mexican tradition and I think Vietnam, I think Asian traditions for sure, but I know in Mexico as well there's a that tradition of sitting out the month where you just really rest and people take care of you. that would be so sweet, right?
Angelique: Goodness. Goodness.
Ellen: Yeah. So but also, you know, post surgery too, you need much more nourishment after surgery to heal. it said you need more protein. So having these broths where you're not having to chew and digest, but you kind of get that IV infusion, you know, the extraction of the nourishment into the liquid that you've cooked for a long period of time. is very nice.
Toby: Would it would any temperature component for that? 'Cause I know like surgical theater are always so cold, right? I wonder if you feel like you need to warm them back up after that? again, taking into account their constitution as well.
Ellen: Absolutely. Well, a really nice way to warm yourself back up is to do like a ginger foot bath. know, just to get that heat in. if you have scars, of course, that's tricky, but even doing moxa on stomach thirty six, or if you don't have a scar, you know, on C V C V four is really nice to kind of give that, you know, support to just a whole body qi and that deep kind of source qi in the body.
Toby: Nice.
Ellen: Yeah. Also helps you know, helps you to relax. You know, when you when you're cold, it's hard to relax. You know, your tenses up. So have that But you know, really heating from the feet up is really can really a big difference. Yeah.
Angelique: That sounds wonderful. I've had patients do Epsom salt soaks like at night before bed, but I didn't consider adding ginger. That makes so much sense.
Ellen: Yeah, I think more for the feet. Yeah.
Angelique: That's what I'm saying. Like feet soaks, like have them soak their feet.
Ellen: Yeah, very nice. Up through kidney one. Yeah.
Angelique: Yeah. I like that a lot.
Toby: Ellen, what role does intuition play in your clinical work?
Ellen: Hmm. That's a great question. I mean, it plays I think everything in it in a way. But again, I think that's over years and years and years of experience. And also in the beginning, I really hasn't changed, but I'm I'm very curious about people. So, you know, people come into our into our clinic space and tell what the problem And A lot of times people will rush through that and then they'll get to something else. And it's always good to go back to the first thing that a person says. You know, tell me more about that. I think I like to space in the in the clinic setting where someone can open up a little bit, you know, and kind of see I think 'cause people when we have If especially, you as an acupuncturist, a lot of people come to us because of pain, right? and pain is something that we have an aversion to, meaning we pull away from it or it becomes a source of focus that is like this a little bit of an invader into our lives. And do we kind of get under that to see what the experience of it is? Because I think we have to sense the person, you know, it's not just the problem that they're bringing, but the person who is experiencing this. And you know, sometimes people have this problem, but they're very kind of shut down and defended and so it's hard to enter, right? So we have to be gentle. And then sometimes people are very vulnerable with a problem, and we have to be gentle. But it's a different way in. You know, I really know, I've seen it over the years, that people's nervous systems can take only so much. I to pay attention to that. And one my always said less is more. You know, so it think if we're very intentional in how we needle or we're very intentional in how we converse. It can have a very strong impact on people and we don't have to work so hard and we don't have to do so many points. everyone has a different style. Like one of my first teachers was a Japanese practitioner in New York, and he did many needles, but in a very interesting way. So I have, you know, a little bit of his kind of teaching, and also because I came from dance and movement therapy. And Shiatsu. So I have a deep study of the body and also a deep kind of study of palpation of the body. And so, know, being able to feel the body and sense like, the needle goes here, even though maybe the point says it's here, you know. or just kind of inquiring with the person. So it's become a little bit more automatic, but you know, it did take me decades to kind of see what is the system, you know, who is the person, what's coming in the door, what are they ready for? can they leave with that they can integrate back into their lives, you know? So I think in that way my intuition plays a huge role. And of course my training plays a huge role too. So
Toby: Yeah, they interact, right? Your intellectual understanding and the intuition.
Ellen: Yeah. I mean, do you have do you work a lot with your intuition?
Toby: Yeah, I think it takes the lead for me.
Ellen: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Angelique: I would say same. I was a nurse for a very long time before becoming an acupuncturist. And so that's I think probably the strongest skill I bring to my own practice because I learned that interaction, that gentleness that you talk about, and how gentleness can have different flavors. And you have to find way it with the right with what's what's right for the patient in front of you. Yeah.
Ellen: Yeah. And you know, it's it's again like I said when I first started talking, I mean, if someone walks out of my clinic with a sense of feeling their body and feeling a sense of hope or possibility, then I know that's good. That was a good treatment. That's good. You know, 'cause how do you We jump out of our bodies so quick. I mean, people have their phones, you know. always tell people, Don'turn your phone on right away, okay? Just take a little walk, take a few breaths, have a little snack or have some tea and then turn your phone on. But it never works. People are like out the door with their phones in front of their faces. sometimes. So, you know, how do we help people get in their bodies? I mean, how do we help us stay more human in this time? That's That's a really big question. And how do we share some kindness? I in these times these things have a lot more value than we realize, you know, because the world is kind of rough right now. Mm-hmm. For a of people. Yeah.
Angelique: Yes.
Toby: Yeah, but it's it's we're s I feel yeah, so fortunate. Our role is to put a little bit of kindness, a little bit of health back into the system, right? That's can be so unkind and so unhealthy at times. It's really nice to put a little bit different spin back on it person by person, right? I feel so lucky to be able to do this work.
Ellen: Yes, absolutely. also, you know, I'm I'm very aware just of what's going on, you know, how can I support someone in when they choose both paths? You know, like sometimes we just need a doc you know, we need a medical doctor for some reason for some things. Yep. and so how can we help someone, you know, put those two together in the in the way that they are both working, you know, together. to help the person feel healthier and be healthier and more vital, really.
Angelique: That's the aim in my practice, being an RN and also an acupuncturist, trying to blend both seeing people from all around the area, doing that very thing. Yeah.
Ellen: Great. That's great, yeah.
Toby: All right. Ellen thanks so much for your time and spending a little bit time with us with office hours. We really appreciate it. I highly recommend everyone go out and get the book for themselves and then a second copy for your waiting room, because if it's like my waiting room, that is always out rented by other patients. So maybe two better say two for the waiting room, one copy for you.
Ellen: Absolutely. That's great. I love it. I mean, if my greatest hope is that this book is of benefit to people or that it just it connects them to something that they can, you know, a choice for themselves that is delicious and good for you. I mean, there's a saying in Chinese medicine, chi yao, eat your medicine, you know, like eat your medicine, you know, food and medicine are inseparable. Enjoy it and do it with joy because eating healthfully is not a chore. It should be a great a great pleasure that gives back to you times.
Toby: Yeah, but thanks so much for making a tool that makes that a little bit easier to do. So we really appreciate that.
Ellen: Yeah, well thank you so much for having me. I'm really I cannot wait to hear you guys are up to soon. So please stay in touch. And yeah, if anyone has questions for me, they can reach me easily like at my website, pearl natural health.com or LNG at health.com. I'm always happy to answer questions.
Toby: That'so generous. Thank you.
Angelique: Yes, thank you so much. Very inspirational.
Toby: All right. Bye everybody.
