Office Hours with Angelique and Toby. Released April 28, 2026. 68 minutes.

About this episode

Translator and practitioner Allen Tsaur describes his journey from a childhood in Taiwan and a career in engineering to Chinese medicine. He talks about the value of the classical texts, the challenges of translating them, and why commentary and historical critique are essential for understanding formulas.

Along the way he discusses how major figures such as Zhang Jingyue, Wu Jutong, Ye Tianshi, Zhu Danxi, and Wu Youke shaped the theories practitioners use today, and offers practical advice for students and practitioners engaging with ancient texts. The episode notes suggest watching on YouTube, where visuals accompany the physicians and formulas he mentions.

Topics

From engineering to Chinese medicine
Classical poetry and early reading
Challenges in translating classical medical texts
Commentary and historical critique of formulas
Major historical physicians and their influence
Advice for students reading the classics

Key terms

Jingfang (經方): classical formulas from the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue
Zhang Jingyue (張景岳): Ming dynasty physician and author
Wu Jutong (吳鞠通): Qing dynasty warm disease physician
Ye Tianshi (葉天士): Qing dynasty warm disease physician

A note for listeners: this is a conversation among practitioners, offered for education, not as medical advice. Patient details have been kept general to protect privacy. Herbs and doses mentioned are historical or professional references; some, such as Ma Huang (ephedra) and Fu Zi (aconite), are restricted or toxic and should be used only under the care of a licensed herbalist.

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain errors, especially in names and Chinese terms.

Toby: Allen Tsaur so much for coming to our show, Office Hours. We really appreciate you making the time.

Allen: It's my pleasure to be here.

Toby: Yeah, we'really excited and we got a whole bunch of questions for you I think to get us started, if you don't mind, would you mind giving us a little bit of your professional background just so listeners are familiar with what doing? And if you don't mind when you're giving us your background, if you can weave in how you became a translator of Chinese medical texts with that, if you don't mind.

Allen: Okay, so if we want to talk about translator, then we had to go all the way back. So I was born in the US, but I was brought to Taiwan I was three. So I spent 10 years of my travel in Taiwan. And that's when began to develop a lot.

Toby: Okay great.

Allen: Classical poetry and also classical writing. during grade school, I read the art of warm and also I began to read a lot about poetry from the Han dynasty at the time. Later I went more into the Song dynasty because I feel like Han dynasty poems more gutsy, more... Han dynasty is just like, okay, the world was beautiful and I a lot of first world issue basically. And Han dynasty is like, well, people are suffering warm.

Allen: Starvation. I really love that old type of writing from a very young age and also my school teacher gave me a challenge because I was not really a good student back then. I never really finished my homework and so my grades were falling behind so my teacher gave me a challenge like well if I can recite the art of warm from memory And she would give me extra credit. I did. Memorize Art of War

Toby: Wow. How many characters is that, Art of War?

Angelique: Don't even remember, like...

Allen: 2,000, 3,000. I think I still remember part of the first few chapters. Later chapters I don't remember. keep reciting the over-over. Anyway, when I was 13, I came back to this country.

Toby: Jeez, okay.

Allen: Well, first, my English was my absolute worst subject ever in Taiwan. So I was doing really well in Chinese. I was doing really well in math and science, but English is the one I never got a passing grade ever. So I came back to this country and took the English as the second language test and I got a score of zero out of 100. I got kicked out within like 20 seconds because I couldn't even begin the listening test. So started over with English. So because of that, I think in school, just thought, OK, I need something I could survive with. So during high school, I focused really strongly into math and science. So in college, I actually went to engineering instead. So I studied material science engineering in Northwestern University.

Allen: Throughout the time around graduation, was doing research because in my major, if you wanted to graduate, we had write honors thesis. So I did it and also I did summer internship here and also in ITRI in Taiwan.

Allen: I think I was okay. also pretty good with math and science and engineering, but it wasn't really my passion. So most of my classmates went out to pursue higher degree that masters and PhD. My roommate right now a professor in a U Mish Arbor. And I think some of my other classmates were also professors. So for me, just like, it's not really my Then I took a job offer to do engineering work in Shanghai. That was when I got in touch with Chinese medicine because during the weekend when we had nothing to do, someone said, hey, do want to like de-stress? Do you want to like relax? So somehow they noticed a local doctor somewhere in Qibao, Shanghai on the Western suburb of Shanghai.

Angelique: And to like and.

Allen: Took me there. That's the first time I experienced acupuncture. So had no idea what she was doing. And environment was far from sanitary. So she literally just picked up a needle from over place and just needle me. It's by that I didn't get hepatitis B or something. yeah, at the I was just like, wow, this, that acupuncture thing is so weird. It's magical. But at the same time, it'so weird. Why is it? So I think that started my curiosity in Chinese medicine And around the time my best buddy from college, he enlisted in the Marine Corps. So he was in a training pool before he was going to join the Marine. And around the time he received a request, I think it was from a boy from Texas. Basically, he's Because at the time in college, we both joined this bone marrow drive. So he was matched with a kid, 14 year old kid from Texas. because he's Asian like me. So it's really hard for Asian teenage boy to get a match from anyone else here because Asian American are in the minority of the registry. So he was like, okay, so he might be the only one who can help this kid who has leukemia. And he was asking me to say, hey, Allen, you're pretty good at research, you look into this? I was like, if I donate my bone marrow, will it affect my performance as a Marine recruit? do suggest I go through it. So at the time, just look into it. So for Western literature, seems like, well, there's no issue. Just take two months of break and just walk it off and you'll be fine. But then I look into the Eastern side, it's like, do not do it because that's your essence. you give it away, you will never recover from it. So I was just like, that is very interesting for science, we learn never to exclude. Each one of must be saying something, but somehow why don'they?

Allen: Do not overlap. That's my question. because of that, looked more Chinese medicine. Because I read more about Chinese medicine, I realized I did not understand any of it. So I needed to read more. And the more I read, I dig a deeper hole for myself. So I just read and read and read. And eventually, think it culminated with the

Toby: Much.

Allen: I was in China, I was really bored. So I went on to this, I worked with this charity organization hand out financial aid to college students, especially from the impoverished region in China. we travel, first site I went to was Yunnan So it's like two, three hours from Xi'an. So that's where basically that's where the Chinese Communist Party went to hiding during the single Japanese warm after the so-called Long March, or the Long Retreat the land of China. So I went there and then met the students and talked with them and this and that. And after that, I went to, I think plus cities throughout China. One thing occurs throughout the time was that poor because while they're just from impoverished region with parents.

Allen: Or

Allen: But I noticed some of them were well, for...

Allen: They went into the state of destitute because of medical expenses. So especially if the parents came down with a Crohn's disease, became unable to work. First you had medical expense and second they are out of work. So what usually happen is that then the eldest sibling would drop out of school to go work in Guangzhou. So it'sent home the money. And second sibling would then... continue to work in the field and third sibling might even drop out to help with the health. And then just so they can send that one kid to college. So that happened almost like a repeat pattern. So that was, think is that is there anything we can do with Chinese medicine? Because first I don't see any cause was just needle. That's all you need, right? So at the time I was had this fantasy that, Oh, why one day I can just travel around with like 1000 needles and just treat everywhere. where everyone I met. So I think that's around time then I became truly passionate about medicine.

Angelique: And then, and then,

Allen: I think around 2012, I made a decision to switch track again because again, I think I was decent with my work, but I just didn't really feel the passion about it. So then I switched consulting in the chemical industry into Chinese medicine. So in 2013, I enrolled myself into a school. The school was, went to, back then it was called Tai Sophia Institute, then it was called Maryland University Institute Integrated Health, and now it's gone. So I to school, and one thing the school required at the graduation is that we need to do a senior community project. For me, going to do charity work is kind of okay, but at the time, intrigued and fascinated by the ideas of 8 Principle, because I feel like something off, because when we talk about 8 Principle, we only really talk about six of them, in interior, exterior, cold, heat, and repletion and vacuity

Toby: Thanks

Allen: So usually go to abstract and then at the end they'll give something slightly more solid with like, yeah, it's a yin-vacuity, yang vacuity thing.

Allen: But you already have vacuity and profusion, why do you have to repeat by yourself? Wouldn'that be independent variable instead? So then of course.

Allen: Was introduced by us, so I did some research and I traced it back to Zhang Jinyue.

Allen: I began to read about his work and I was fascinated by his ideas. But at this time I didn't quite get it. didn't really get ideas until much later, until I began to do translation.

Toby: What year was that when you first started reading his work?

Allen: I started reading the casework around 2014-2015.

Toby: But at that point, no ambition to try and translate it? No.

Allen: So it wasn't until when they announced we needed to do the senior community project. I was like, hey, maybe I could just translate that. It would be a service to the field because it seems like no one has any idea where this even came from. So I was like, hey, maybe I can do this as a favor to the profession. So then I proposed the idea to academic dean at the time. And it was accepted. then I went on to do a translation. So I think we really needed to do 80 hours or 100 hours of the senior community service. It cost me more than 400,

Toby: The end of- We're getting a sense about your personality, Allen.

Allen: Yeah, just, I just keep editing it forever. so that was the first ever translation I did, but it was almost immature-ish.

Toby: No, but how much of the text did you translate then?

Allen: At the time I translated the first volume. So, Jing Yue Qian Shu has 64 volumes, I translated the first volume. Because I feel like... One coherent volume, so I can translate the whole thing. Yeah, it's quite sizable. At the time, I had absolutely zero idea about how the thing I was translating. Because at the time, I didn't read Zhu Dan Xi, didn't read Li Dong Yuan, I didn't read any of...

Toby: Chill!

Allen: I just like, try to do-

Toby: Right, just that one text, but it's actually embedded in a whole bunch of other texts and a whole bunch of other ideas. That must have been really difficult.

Allen: Yeah, I did it. And it's just mostly more like a, what would they call, literal translation. So I got a literal meaning. I had no idea about the context. So did a translation.

Toby: No idea about clinical application. You're just a student.

Allen: I mean, get some ideas, but I didn't quite get it. mean, some of the things is very clinically applicable because it tells you about, oh, did you the 10 questions, what did you inquiries.

Toby: That'so great to know where the 10 questions come from too, right? just presented in like TCM text, just these are the 10 questions, but who developed it, you know, anyways.

Allen: Yeah, Zhang Jinyue first started it and then Chen XiuRen refined it a little bit. And then it became TCM version. So, yeah, so you know what he talks about YinYang and also it was also the place where it came up with the I think now they call prenatal postnatal or pre-heaven late heaven concept. Of course, I didn't understand any of this. was like, oh yeah, later heaven, of course.

Allen: So I just translated it. I didn't understand any of this. I finished the project, sent to my community. to academic dean and also for my teacher, Evan Rabinowitz, and also my fellow students in the program because I was always talking about it. So I think I annoyed them enough, so I need to send you some tokens. So send them to them and then I just kind of forgot about it. just like left it my... my hard disk never spoke about it because at the I it was not ready.

Allen: Think that was my first try at translation. So first, it was way harder than I thought. I thought it would be easy, but it was pretty hard. And also, it just kind of shows how unprepared I was for the time.

Angelique: So I think that.

Allen: I really got into translation when Michael Brown reached out to me in 2017. So Michael Brown is my longtime collaborator. I think I don't even remember how many times we collaborate on seven, six or seven.

Allen: At the time he was translating Yue Hanzhen's explanations of channels and points. So I remember why I was going to Asia at the time. basically I was like traveling to Asia, I got this email from someone I do not know, his name is Michael Brown. He was like, hey, can you help me out with this translation? I have some extra, can you look at them and see if you can see?

Allen: Review it and see if there's anything off with it. I just went into just edit everything and send it back to him. And after that editing, he decided to, we decided to work with together. And we have been collaborating ever since. So that was the beginning to, for me into translation. I actually learned a lot from Michael because I understood nothing about terminology. I did not know there was a dictionary available with all the terminology ready.

Allen: That would have saved me so much pain back in the house.

Toby: You're making up your own, like, glossary?

Allen: Yeah, I was. it was so painful.

Toby: That'so ambitious.

Allen: Just had no of any of this. So I think I just jumped into water without knowing anything. So after, especially I was like jumping back and forth for the choice of Xu and Shi. I was like, at first we use the TCM terms like deficiency, insufficiency, excess. so, but then when you're writing at the sometimes like, wait, Xu also means a state of almost like a fake.

Toby: So bad.

Allen: Falseness to it. So, doesn't quite get it. And also sometimes it's more qualitative than quantitative. And in those times, it also doesn't get it. So, I remember I was just like, I was just like, decide on one turn and wrote down like 10, 15 page later, then I saw another user just like, okay, let's change to something else. Then I just reapply change to everything else.

Allen: I went through this process back and forth so many times until then.

Allen: Michael then saved me with this challenge because he's like, know, Nigel really did that work like 30 years ago, you know. You can do it. Yeah, so. Right. yeah.

Toby: That must have been a relieving day there. so you learn so much, but then also then you got like a golden ticket at the end of it. So you got the learning plus then you got a glossary that you can rely on going forward. That'so great.

Allen: This day, I don'think that struggle is worth it. It me realize how valuable that is. Weissman, professional for us, was so valuable. I actually to meet him on a virtual conference last year, so I just couldn't help but to express all my gratitude and thanks to him. like, my God, if it weren'the work he did for us, I don'think I do translation. It's just so painful. Pretty much that's how I began to translation. So Michael's project on the explanation of playing is like, I heard you already got this translation by Jinyue already. Why don't you do it? I just, it's pretty bad. I don't want to do it. But he just insisting me to do it. And I think luckily or at a time, Phil Settles from ACCHS reached out to me. He wanted me to teach a course called Historical School of Chinese Medicine. I think I just did not know what was involved back then. So I just, oh, sure, I'll do it. And because in my head, I was just, oh, yeah, I took that class before. Of course I can do it. But nowadays, I can barely build a... raft myself and then someone else was asking me to an aircraft carrier. So got in, so I just I agreed and I started preparing, my god my reading list is like 80-90 books. So that's when began read So I started with the Chinese TCM curriculum book.

Allen: Various schools and doctor of various language in Chinese medicine. So that book is like 1200 pages long. So I didn't read everything, of course, it's crazy. So I only focus on bits and pieces. But sometimes when I read into this and it has the reference, then I put on my shopping list and I'll buy it right away. And so

Angelique: So yeah, we'll just.

Allen: Crazy amount of reading and then I thought I really prepared a pretty good course based on that and also all this reading data became my foundation of doing translation later because without doing this course there's no way I could do any other translation later on because for example Zhang Qingyue referenced Liu Wansu all the time, Zhang Yuansu all the time, Li Dongyuan all the time and attacked Zhu Danshi all the time. You have to understand why he attacks them.

Toby: Okay, so first of all, want to thank you so much for that Zhang Jinyue translation. I just love it. But then if you can remember some of the put-downs he puts about Liu Wansu and then also Li Dongyuan. If I remember correctly, it'something like Li Dongyuan, I look at his formulas and I have to sigh. Something like that. It's amazing, know, one of the four great masters and he's just like, oh, these formulas, no good.

Allen: Yeah, so

Allen: Think he, for Li Dong Yuan he was okay with, but Liu Wansu and Zhu Danxi, he has issues with. And I think it has a lot to do with, is my personal take on this, from historical context, because happened was Liu Wansu came up with famous decorations that six entities or 60 entities can all turn to fire. So I the final historical context because at the time the mainstream medicine China had was called Imperial Bureau formula. So basically it's like Imperial Pharmacy Bureau employ

Allen: By the Imperial court and also staff with the Imperial physicians who studied mostly Tang Dynasty like the Chaoyuan-fang texts. So have this philosophy. Let me just pick out two of the main points. Two main points, all disease began with wind cold That's number one. Second one is all disease occurred because of insufficiency. So they quoted Su think they say, So wherever the evil getters, there must have been vacuity.

Toby: Place for it to come in.

Allen: Yeah. So based on that, you can see from Cao Yuanfang's and also Sun Simiao's formula, there's a very common strategy. first, doesn't matter what disease it is. You always want to eliminate wind. So even internal disease, will see ma huang. Or two of will see chuanxiong to vent out wind. So even if it's internal disease, it's very quite frequent.

Allen: To see multiple which is quite unusual because you don't really see that in the modern strategy. You see it in the older strategy. So they use that. And the other thing is they use a lot of tonics in the Tang dynasty formulas because of the two guiding principles. And also for the Imperial Bureau to treat all the people and often without diagnosing. So a lot of those so-called pet formula, prefer formula, they are kind of messy.

Angelique: So that was a

Allen: Condition of mainstream medicine, Liu Wansu to come to power, can do is around his time here. And also he part is in the North. there'something in the, something in the North is that, for example, Beijing, 20, 30 years ago, very few household had shower. You go to baths and sometimes people don't even shower, like maybe shower once a week or once a month.

Allen: So, did not 800 years ago. So 800 years ago, most likely, Kipion did not shower at all. So, I mean, was a frequent practice, not only here in Asia, but also in Europe. Some people never shower in their life. I think Luis XIV showered like four times in his life or something. and so Northlander, they have very different constituted than Southlanders. So first of all, they have...

Allen: Different diet. And also climate is very different. It's very frigid, very dry, and also they don't shower, and also they eat a lot more meat than grain and vegetable. So that makes it quite likely that first your pores are never open, so everything cannot stay within, becomes stagnant. so with that conditioning, and if you further take those formulae per square foot and bureau formula,

Allen: We're venting and also warming and drying, you can create something called depressed heat or stagnant heat. And so I do think that's the reason why Liu Wansu begin to advocate for this idea that, hey, all things can turn into fire. So one of the most important things that you want to eliminate stagnation. So his focus is on that point. And so attacking evil school is basically Zhang Chongzhen, was basically Liu Wanshu'student. And Zhang Wansu, is, Zhang Wansu is Li Dongyuan's teacher, was also a student of Liu Wanshu. So they all had this idea, oh, patho mechanism. So Li Dongyuan is kind of a different case, so let me skip that part. Zhu Danxi is also from the Liu Wanshu lineage. So Zhu Danxi started with... I don't remember his name, but was something like Zhang Taiwu or Xue Taiwu or someone. And Taiwu studied with Jin Sanfu. Jin Sanfu studied with Liu Wanshu. So Zhu Danxing himself is also a Liu Wanshu lineage person. So he also all this idea from him. So basically what... he did was he concluded all of the study of the Liu Wansu lineage plus Zhang Chongzhen plus Li Dongyue, together. So he wrote... He wrote two books in his lifetime, so...

Allen: First book is called 聚方法會, so basically he attacked everything that was about the bureau of formal medicine. So that was the first book he wrote. And second book was something about material medical. He didn't finish the most famous book until his death. His disciple actually finished it for him. It's called 金貴溝雄. So in English is grasping the concept from the...

Allen: The profundity of the Golden Cabinet. So for now we know he was inspired by Jinggui Yao Lv, Golden Cabinet. So what is that book? So that book lists, I think, 300, 400 diseases in different categories. What caused them and how do you treat it? And if you read through it, then you quickly come to one conclusion. these occur mostly because of stagnation.

Allen: And also at the time he said yin-vacuity, but it's more likely blood deficiency. Yeah. And also phlegm But the blood-vacuity thing is his own addition. Liu Wansu did not say that, he added that part. So blood-vacuity part is because, I would say his main thesis work is

Toby: That's interesting.

Allen: Gezhi yu lun. So gezhi refers to ge wu zhi. It means contemplating acquire complete knowledge. So it's a neo-confucian idea. He was himself a neo-confucian. He never really wanted to practice medicine until he was in the 40s. The reason is because he failed imperial exam so many times.

Allen: And he became super depressed and his teachers said, maybe you should not study, you should do practice medicine instead. But I don'think we should have anything against him though, because he happened to run into some of the hardest imperial exam ever in Chinese history. what happened was it was after the Mongolian conquest of China. So they did have imperial examination for 20 plus years. And when they restarted this whole process, They have a severe quota for the southerners.

Toby: Yeah, mostly Mongolians and then a little bit for southerners, right?

Allen: I think they were very, they were very fair. So they have four quotas, but all of them have the same number of people. So for example, if you have 100 people, 25 of them for Mongolian, course, 25 of them for Central Asian, and 25 % of them for Northern Chinese and 23 % for Southern Chinese. the thing is Southern Chinese is like 70, 80 % of the population. became the most competitive imperial exam ever. So he actually took it a couple of times he failed he became depressed and he became a practitioner instead. And so from that work is very interesting. It reads more like a new Confucian work rather than medical work because he actually began the book with one quote from Confucius. He says, the greatest desire for a human being is

Toby: Yeah.

Allen: Food and sex. he actually goes into that book in go through great lengths to talk about you should practice abstinence. should have very bland diet, no seasoning. And he advocated for veganism. So basically he says, well, if you add any seasoning, that's not a natural flavor over the food. It's not nourishing. It's killing you. So, and also if you use those seasonings, you're creating a strong fire instead.

Allen: So if you want to avoid those fire, eat bunfu, eat leek. And if you eat meat, you'll create phlegm so don't eat meat. Same thing with sex. Sex is like, oh yes, according to the fire element, sex is a kidney fire or something. So you should not do it in winter because you need to store the fire in winter. And you should not do it in summer because that's fire season. Fire plus fire is bad. And also you could just... I think there are like six months of year, are at least two, three seasons a year where you cannot have sex. and also late summer you can have it because that's when spring is going against the water. So I it either. So, and also said, well, the status of it's like, it's almost like the moon. So it's never a whole, it's only whole for like one, two days a month.

Toby: In C.

Allen: For all of us, it's a half full and most of us is empty. So he advocated that when it's less than half full, you cannot have sex either.

Toby: Didn't sound like any fun, Allen.

Allen: No, he's not a fun guy. So towards the end of it, he said, well, basically, should just abstain from sex. And even during the time when you feel if you're sousing, you should just go off for a travel and just avoid sex. So yeah, go for one. so anyway, so that's Zhu Danxi. But I think they may pull back to the topic we were talking about.

Toby: For a walk instead.

Allen: So back to the topic is what did Zhang Jiyue have against him? So basically it's that book I mentioned, the Elucidated Profoundity from the Golden Cabinet, in which it gives you almost like a, it's almost like a clinical manual of how do you treat all diseases. then begin to have a few issues because if you just see everything as stagnation, everything as phlegm, you will always, be using strategy. And also you see everything as yin-vacuity or blood-vacuity.

Allen: Are just continually giving people tonics and it would destroy their digestion. I think that's where Zhang Jinyuan came in and said, okay, we need to put a stop to this. He does agree with some part of it. But I think in Chinese they say, when they try to correct one thing, go...

Toby: Yes, know, but it's nice, especially if you read all the text, then you can get a real middle path through all of it.

Allen: Yeah, so think that's why was like, I really feel blessed and at every opportunity I get a chance, I do want to thank Phil Settles for asking me to build my effort career from the very beginning. Without that experience, would have read so many books. And also, most of those books were not on my book list because when I first studied in medicine, consider myself like Jingfang purist or you can even call I could even call myself back there as a fanatic or fundamentalist. So I the first books I read was Chen Xiuyuan He was like a purist He's like when he turned 40, he burned all the books. That's not jingfang. He's like those books only create confusion. And so the first few years of my learning as an herbalist,

Toby: Hmm

Allen: I only read Shang Hanlun and Omni,

Toby: Bad you can't go back in time to tell yourself that you're to be translating Wu Ju Tong.

Allen: Think that was the most, I say that would be the most absurd idea I ever heard.

Toby: Got something for your past self to see.

Allen: Yeah. So yeah, it's actually really funny because when I went through my program Evan Rabanelvitz,

Allen: He challenged me to say, hey, one day I want to see you say that's not Shanghanlun. One day, you can practice warm disease, you have become more balanced. I think that was a very good challenge he gave me and maybe a really good or something.

Toby: That's really profound. of something I really wanted to ask you today. Maybe this is a good time to ask it. What about, I'm sure some of the people that are going to be listening to this are really still hardcore Jing Fang And kind argument can you make to them to read your book? Wuju Tong's text, Systematic Differentiation of Warm Diseases. What kind of argument can make to your former self for them just to take a look at this book?

Allen: So, just start from Wu Jutong.

Allen: The first time I read this book I was really quite surprised because

Angelique: I always thought it would be some

Allen: Something like, almost like Wu Youxin's, Warm Epidemics, the Wenyi Lun. I thought it be a book that's like, oh, warm epidemics, how do you treat it? And through it with a lot of bitter and cold medicinal and get rid of it. So I read this book during COVID because, you know, COVID, we tried Jingfang and, there were a few issues. Yes, Jingfang was effective, but the, especially original strain evolved way too fast.

Toby: Perfect

Allen: By the time the medication the patient, especially if are not your neighbor, the disease already moved on to somewhere else. And also the time, we couldn't really quite predict where it went. And so it became quite problematic. And even if we could predict where it went, the stock jingfang formula couldn't quite do the job well. So at first I saw it as, cold phlegm cool, Xiaoqing Longtang, done.

Toby: Hmm.

Allen: But later on I like, wait, do I say blastasis? So, okay, then let me change that bai to chi shao Let me just be cute, just do that.

Angelique: And it's like, wait, it's also causing heat or de-

Allen: It collapsed along and also, okay.

Angelique: It works, but it only works

Allen: Worse if you reach it within two days.

Angelique: So, and also a lot

Allen: More and more variable came out and we just didn't quite know what was going on at the time so later on I threw the big bruise in my jingfang ego by prescribing people Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San because it seemed to work quite well at the time so yeah I was like oh okay it seems to work I just to at least you're not killing me and I just like

Toby: So modern.

Allen: They can recover at 18 and also they can get reflame and then we can clarify things and diagnose later. yeah, by myself sometimes. So, combine Wu Ling San and Xiao Chai Tang So are my usuals. Yeah, I put a cover on my face. You know, when you're not sure, just use a combination, use a Xiao Chai Hu Tang. Then you're set.

Toby: Buy yourself some time. Cover your bases.

Allen: So I was kind of desperate at the time. So around time I was like, maybe we're missing something from Jingfang. Maybe just see what they got from the West side. And maybe I can steal some ideas. So I first look into, of course, at the time we call it pestilence, we call it epidemics. Okay, let me look into Wenyin Lun by Wu Youxin. It's probably the most famous book on epidemics. So I read into it. I just don't see the pattern it describes in the book. So at the time, think some people did suggest using the...

Allen: Da Yuan Yin, yeah, Da Yuan Yin. So at the time they tried to use this out-thrust membrane source. But the thing is, it didn't quite match with what we saw in clinic because that one you're supposed to have a lot heat pattern and heat condition. So I decided to steal some herbs from it. I remember I stole Cao Guo, I stole a few herbs and applied to my bigger formula.

Toby: Yeah, that's a that's a history of chinese medicine stealing from here is here and there trying to make something yeah

Allen: Yeah, I stole from it. then Chai Hu Tang is so flexible. You can just like stuff anything to it. It's I stole some from it. And then also first Da Yunyin, and also there's a San Tou Tang or something. Basically a modification based on that. which I think to be valuable because at the time it says, if in Tai Yang add this. If you've seen Shao Yang I deserve. If you've seen Yang Ming I deserve. So I was like, oh, that's a cool idea. Maybe steal that as well. So I stole that. But at the same time, it's like...

Allen: Not quite, because I read the whole book and I only came up with some tidbits where I found it but it's not super useful. So then I'm looking to the next book on my list, which is Wen Bing Tiao Ben of Warm Diseases. I thought it would be the same thing as that. So was wrong, that book doesn't just talk about warm diseases. actually talks about...

Allen: As it stated in the general outline, it's a book about six Qi entities. Basically, it doesn't just talk about heat or wind heat. It also talks about cold damp. It also talks about dryness. It also talks about other conditions of where I previously struggled with. So, and to my surprise, when I look through the cold damp, I think it's in the middle, burner chapter. I saw my trusty Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San.

Toby: Mm.

Allen: Also it has five different variations of that. How do you modify it Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San to use it? for me, from that get-go, it's like, even if I just learn those five variations, this book is it. I think one of coolest things I saw then

Angelique: I don't remember which chapter. I saw a cough formula.

Allen: But it is. It's exact same formula I came up with myself and I thought I was being very smart.

Toby: Thought you were so original. Centuries earlier.

Allen: Yeah, I thought it was original. Yeah, Xiao Chai Xiaotang plus Hou Pu plus ren.

Toby: To give you a little bit of confidence, that's good.

Allen: Yeah, so I was like, wait a second, someone already came up with it and also he actually had a ratio of all those herbs and actually have reasoning behind them. That's probably better than my random try. I just go with like regular users like, how much is it? I don't know, Ban Xia I don't know, 3 qian And he actually has some reasoning for that. So then...

Angelique: Was like, wow, this.

Toby: What's name of that formula, do you remember? The Cough formula?

Allen: I think just show. I think it's just Xiao Ban Xia Tang Yeah, jia Xing Ren Hou Po OK, so this is minor Penelia decoction plus. apricot seed and kernel and Hopo was Magnolia bark, official bark. yeah, that's a formula I saw and... So basically became my almost asset storing tool, overcome my bias against the warm disease.

Toby: That's the history of Chinese medicine and also like clinical need pushes you past your self-imposed limits. Okay, good.

Allen: Yeah. so basically I then started reading that work and also his other works such as his study. Because what I did was I actually read the book and then I read about Wu Jutong's biography by this called Luo Da Neng. It's like the highly dramatized biography of him. But it actually gave me some idea of who Wu Jutong was as a person. From that one, Yashu led me to one of his case study, which to this day is considered as the craziest usage of Jingfang form I ever heard in my life. Wujitong used the highest F, 240 grams. himself. So he an illness in think winter something and it just didn't go away. he took the regular of Gui Zhi Tang, didn't work, increased the dose, didn't work, then increased after 240 grams.

Toby: Confidence your formula there. Not just which formula, but just change those. I don'think have that.

Allen: Yeah, and also, so because of that, I look into his case study as like, so if he can go that high on Guizhi, how about Ma Huang? So he also went super high on Ma Huang. I think he went up to 120, 130 grams in one day. Wow. But there's a caveat. He didn't do it in one go. He didn't do it in liquor style. People take it and they pass out, put in their mouth and they recover. He didn't do that. divided the Ma Huang Tang into 12 portions. Took one, if he didn't help, in a while, take another one. If he didn't help, take another one. I think in that case, the person took 8 or 9 doses and he recovered. So even this day, I've never heard of anyone who dared to prescribe guizhi and huang in such high doses. So my mind, at the time, I OK, maybe this guy

Toby: Huh.

Allen: Even now they would call him the or founder of the warm disease or the person who put together the warm disease school. He was pretty good jingfang practitioner. so based that, argued to my jingfang brethrens and followers, fellow followers. And would just say, well,

Allen: Just look into Wu Jutong's work. You can ignore all the wind heat parts. Just look for the wind cold part. Just look for even the first one in the book is Gui Zhi Tang surprisingly. Yeah, so just start here and just ignore everything you don't feel comfortable with and just skip to the parts where you see. So I think that's what talked to Michael on our podcast. mentioned that.

Toby: Amazing.

Allen: The cited more than 100 Jingfang forms. So even if we just learn the modification of those, it's good enough already.

Toby: Yeah. So that's a solid argument, right? People feel more comfortable when they see the first formula out the gate is Gui Zhi Tang. Okay, good. So that's really good. then, read the whole text, but just take in anything that might be valuable to you. Don't be of this text, right? That's the nice thing to say, right? It's not going to really threaten your identity, right? It may expand of the...

Allen: Yeah, because I Wu Jutong himself...

Allen: I mean, he did practice later on in his life, but he didn't really practice until he was like... Once again, he didn't practice until like his late... I think around 40s.

Toby: Hmm

Allen: His life, he was mostly So what he did was at the time he joined this national effort called the Sikhu Xuanxun, the four bureau of the Grand Library. So was a Imperial Library project conducted during the time of Qianlong, in they read through all the compiled it into a coherent, standardized version of Imperial Library. he was in the medical section. So he worked as a copyist. So he had access to literally all the medical literature you could access at the time. So he was fortunate that he could read through all that. One thing I really think is quite valuable about him is that, well, he read through all of them, but he didn't quite go into that abstract realm because he see

Angelique: And In the meantime, for

Allen: For example, people like Zhang Jinyue and also Zhao Xianke, they both. They go so hard into the abstract grand theory building arena. Everything is sexy, everything is yin and yang interplay.

Allen: The pre-heaven state and late-heaven state, they kind of borrow from Taoists and Taoist borrow from Buddhism, the Nagarjuna's overview. that's comeback too. And so, went so hard into that. Wu Jutong is like, okay, he writes all that. Then he kind of stayed grounded by focusing on the study of Ye Tianshi.

Toby: Also wasn't he really grunt wasn'there like a lot of pandemics at the time of you're or something so you had to stay grounded he couldn't just be you know theorizing he had to actually treat people isn'that right or no

Allen: Yeah, I just think so because he came to fame was... There was a great epidemic in a capital city at the time, so...

Allen: He finally decided to treat people and...

Allen: I don't remember which forum he used. I think he used the Dong Yuan's. but with some modification and later on he also came up with one formula himself called PDS and it's a pretty messy formula but somehow it treated everyone well, everyone recovered.

Allen: But I think one of the cool things I discovered later as I did the translation, I should have captured it earlier, but I did not, was that a lot of his formula actually came from Ye Tianshi's case studies. So lot of modification, those came from, so for example, if you have, me just up with one disease, reversal. So reversal disease can manifest in different way with different symptoms. In Ye Tianshi's books, he would categorize it as a category of reversal. Here is the main formula. Wu Jutong would cite the main formula, sometimes with his little twist to it based on what he understood from Ye Tianshi. And then he would tell people how to modify it based on what Ye Tianshi experienced himself. What worked for Ye Tianshi, he would cite it. And then just tell people, this person had reversal, with heat add this. If this person had reversal, it was that.

Allen: Do this, do that. yeah, basically he's basing his format by actual clinical insight into Ye Tianshi and also has such a degree of flexibility. And also he chose a really good source of material because Ye Tianshi himself is studying with how many teachers are there. Yeah, and some of are team found masters and he himself, think he's, argue his father was

Toby: It'so valuable.

Angelique: So, from here, and. and

Toby: I think 17, yeah.

Allen: Dermatologist. So, where he was an external practitioner. So that's why he was more open to all this idea and he wanted to learn a lot of I think that'something quite valuable. What made me tell you is that first you get a little bit of theory, a good of things. You get insight into the six qi

Allen: On six qi not just when he'd also tested formula from Tianshi and also summarized to you by which you told him also he like every single bit of his reasoning, like every single lie formula, he would say, I said this term because I'm thinking that because of that, are the patho mechanism. And that's why I'm using those herbs. So which I

Toby: Yeah.

Allen: Do think is a pretty good teaching material.

Toby: Okay, I think that's a really sound argument for that. Okay, great. Hopefully you're enticing some people to consider that. And then also, I mean, just from reading your translation of his foreword too, he's a really humble guy, right? Like he didn't want to put all this together, but he just felt like forced to because of the pandemics and you know, like a whole bunch of people like said, oh, you got to write this down, you got to write this down, but he really didn't want to, right?

Allen: Yeah.

Toby: So that's nice coming from that rather than from ego. Like just feels like he has some knowledge that might help people. this is why he's doing the book. So like the framing on that too.

Allen: For me, that's quite moving too because I felt a very similar sentiment the early stage of my translation. I mean, not looking back, might have been insecurity, but at the time I justified myself. I do not want to mislead people. Yeah. So he also displaced a little. So I really resonate with him on that regard. And also one thing that's humble for him to stay, I think was towards the end of the general outline where he said, feel free to reproduce this work and just make sure you attribute to him, just reproduces. and distribute to everyone and also you can spot any error and add anything feel free to do it.

Toby: Yeah, I remember this from your translation, right? It doesn't matter if you're a brand new person studying medicine or a master. I welcome criticism from everyone in that whole range. I thought it was so

Allen: Yeah,

Toby: All right. hesitant to ask you, would mind if you still got the energy, would you telling about the Sanjiao framework that he proposes? Do you mind discussing that or is that too big?

Allen: Think I can touch on a little bit. think got this idea mostly from Ye Tianshi and also from Wu Jutong.

Toby: From Wu Jutong, I'm asking about...

Allen: Sorry, from Wu Youke. Wu Youke. so I think because one of the key jobs for him at the time here is that he needed to showcase the warm diseases are another disease category from cold image. And also, based on what people have observed earlier, those type of disease seem to be contracted through a mouth and nose, which is

Toby: Yeah.

Allen: Which was stated as early as Wuyoke. So Wuyoke mentioned, going from mouth and nose and goes into lung and it goes in the membrane source. So that's a Wuyoke assertion. Ye Tianshi further added more to that. So Ye Tianshi said, yes, go from there, it goes in from the hand tai yin goes from the top to the bottom. So I think that's his inception of the three burner

Allen: So first it goes in from the Tai Yin rather than the Tai Yang, which is different from the Shanghan Lun. So it's almost like a couple. So one from the top, Tai Yin off the arm, the other going for the foot Tai Yang off the, at the bottom. So that's the direct opposite.

Allen: So it goes in from there. And then he cited also from Ye Tianshi'side, well, when it goes into the lung in the upper part, it can also go, I don't even remember how I translated it. So it goes out of its order. It goes in a contrarian order into the heart, the pericardium. So that came from Ye Tianshi. So I think that was the basic building block he received.

Allen: So then he further asserts that, okay, so after that, it goes into burner. Because in the middle burner, you don't really see anything very as specific as the pericardium one. So I think after that, it's because...

Toby: No specific organs right pericardium the organ and then when it goes to middle burner then you're just talking about that region but not

Allen: In the middle of the word, mean, sometimes he does say, that's a Tai Yin disorder, that's a Spleen that's a Stomach disorder. But it doesn't stand out as much. It feels more like a... Because when you say something like, it goes into a pericardium, that'such a bold statement. You know, someone stood for it. Someone came up with the idea. I know this sounds so weird, but yes, it happens. So what I saw was that's cool. And Ye Tianshi came up with that, man, that guy has some guts. So he cited that and then he's like, so, and also he took the ideas of everything started from upper burner. But after middle burner, you see everything is more like in categories.

Allen: So of course, if you are a practitioner or scholar, you can just kind of sort it out. So after it gets into the middle burner, it becomes a little bit category. then I think he just. like

Angelique: Don't want to say assertion.

Allen: But almost like a logical is that, if you start from top, you must have travel to the bottom. So then it goes through a lower burner So I think that's where the three burner idea came from. So I think the first one is the most clinical insightful. The two to me more like categories. So that would be my personal take. But at the time,

Toby: Yeah.

Allen: Ye Tianshi also say you start from the top and go to the bottom. So maybe Ye Tianshi was onto something. So that I do not know. Right now I'm working through the lower burner. It has been slow. I only worked through one section. Another section is quite interesting. They use a lot of animal shells and lot of warming decoctions, which is very interesting.

Toby: I'm surprised about that. your sense about it?

Allen: At a moment

Allen: Well, I think in terms of his ideas, when it gets down to there, it tends to manifest into a Yang depletion pattern, strangely.

Toby: As it goes through the burners, the bottom, when pathogenic factor is in the bottom, then it manifests as yang depletion.

Allen: That's quite weird because...

Toby: Digesting that, but okay.

Allen: Yeah, because I think how he reads on Jueyin and So because he's a middle burner he did state a Taiying disease and...

Allen: Yang Ming disease, so Yang Ming disease, of course, it's a type, you so you get real heat, right? But with Shaoyin disease, you start to need to get rid, try to get rid of the dampness. starting from the middle part, you see a little bit of warming herbs In the lower burner, now I'mostly Shaoyin disease and Jueyin disease, but I haven't been through the whole chapter, I don't know.

Toby: We won't hold you, we won't hold you. This is your final opinion, no?

Allen: In song, you still had two different manifestations. You had the song heat which is a Huang Liao E Jiao Tang pattern. It a little bit of heat, interior heat, but it's almost like a vacuous heat. So in that you want to use something like a tonic with something that cools the fire a little

Allen: Other type of disease are basically Yang depletion If you get further into Jueyin disease, you not only have a Shaoyin pattern, which is Yang depletion disorder, you also have other weird things. So I think the way how he raised Jueyin disease is more like the end of both Yin-Yang state. So he actually needs to work on both of them. That's my current take on that. and also, as we watch the translation, strangely, we shot

Allen: We shut down part of our brain. We cannot see the brain picture because we get stuck into this tunnel vision, trying to read lines and passage. Sometimes we miss a big picture of things. right now I'm not stuttering. I remember what's fascinating me at the time.

Toby: You have only patients that have lower burner problems, that's your mind is right now.

Allen: Unfortunately, I don't really want to see it.

Toby: Okay, all Too bad you can't differentiate for that. It's coming in only for that now.

Allen: Yeah, usually we see mostly, well, patients don't really see us because they say, if I'm sick, I should stay home. I'm not better. And so we see a lot more middle burner disease. lower burner disease. I see it more in Chinese patients because I treat, right now I treat 50 % Caucasian, 50 % Asian. And so most Asian patients want herbs and they want to deal with chronic disease. And most Western patients come in with pain management and they want acupuncture and nothing to do with that, those like grass and mud and stuff. So it's kind of interesting.

Toby: Mm.

Toby: That's great clinical experience 50-50. That's

Allen: Yeah, so sometimes I do have Chinese patients coming with chronic issues. I'm not sure if it's my bias or me being here in mid-Atlantic. Almost everyone in city has like deep pulse and almost everyone has. So when I first started my practice, since I was a hardcore Jingfang practitioner, everything is Fuzi, right? So now do more.

Toby: I don't know.

Allen: For Cangzhu, I do a lot more Fuling Yeah, and try to just the gank of them and see what happens. Cangzhu, Fuling, and also Hopu. Those are my main herbs here.

Toby: It is. Okay, that's over here on the west coast who'saying, right? So much damp. feel like I'm dealing with so much damp all the time. It might just be an American thing.

Allen: I was in... I just came back from Asia and I was in LA and just said, wow, the air is so crisp. The light is golden. Every day is a sunny day. Unlike Here we had to deal with pollen

Angelique: Yeah, I should and

Allen: Hay fever almost five months a year. So maybe that's why I use hou po so

Toby: That's right.

Angelique: Yeah, I feel it.

Allen: Feel like West Coast should be cleaner.

Toby: I don't know. Maybe I'misdiagnosing, Allen I don't appreciate you criticizing my diagnostic.

Allen: No, I'm pretty sure you know what I want to know. I don't know. We only know the... with the patient we're working I don't have a California license so I don't practice any of it. So don't know. That's right.

Toby: It's fascinating. And especially that's great for you to see the two different populations side by side too, right? And that you can really get insight into both. Right. We're getting close to wrapping this up for today. I'm going to really recommend people get your translations. They're so amazing. And then this is what I wanted to say too, before I is like, if you only read the footnotes for text, it's it. Like the Chinese medicine education just from the footnotes is just unbelievable. And then I really appreciate with the Wuju Tong text, all like you set up the characters that you're to be talking about and referencing throughout it. So it's really nice to have that little bibliography about the characters that are going to be part of that in the beginning too. So can't recommend your text enough. I'm, I finished it yet, but the I've read so far has just been fantastic. I read all the, Zhang Jingyue translations was incredible. That really helped me a lot. One of favorite things from that too is I don't know if you remember But, Zhang Jing Yue is criticizing people that use root and branch as a, as know, like, there's like an excuse to do things. And again, that my thinking about that so much. Cause I always feel like it was a little bit of a, yeah, like excuse, right? I'm just going to treat the branch or something like that. If you, if you don't mind, you remember that section, if you don't mind commenting on that, and then we'll let you go. We know you have a stack of translation to get to, but if you don't mind setting us off with it, with a. So, Root and Branch, Zhang Jingyue take on that.

Allen: So I can offer you my personal speculation. Because I feel you can get some of his message from the group already. But I think I want to insert a little bit more context. So remember why I mentioned earlier why Zhang Jingyue attacked Zhu Danxi so much is because Zhu Danxi is a patho mechanism. Everyone'stagnation phlegm, et cetera. if you at disease and condition in that point of view, every single disease is a branch disease.

Allen: Actually.

Toby: Single, I'm sorry, what?

Allen: So if you look at it from that perspective, single disease is a result of stagnation. So every single disease is a branch disease. And also point of view, the only constitution issue in vacuity. So basically if you practice from Zhu Danxi perspective, where you'll ultimately at. So I think Zhang Jiyue is cautioning us against that.

Allen: So in that, fight against that, he created a pre-heaven and late-heaven concept. What pre-heaven? they start what's late-heaven. So what's post-heaven is basically everything Zhu Danxi is talking about. Everything Zhu Danxi is talking about is basically... And Zhang Jingyue himself actually acknowledges that. Okay, that is actually... He doesn't get a true essence, which is an earlier heaven.

Toby: They have it.

Allen: So basically he created a thing and in some way he redefined, he created a grand framework and just kind of put Zhu Danxi into one corner of which is called the late heaven category. Now he wants to spend the whole week talking about the pre-heaven. And that's I want to arrive at this root and branch. Basically he's like, whatever Zhu Danxi does is a branch. Now let's talk about the root. What is root? We call the root simply as constitution.

Allen: His work, was like, he would call it a, that's a formless qi That's a formless yin formless list yang That'so hard to diagnose, so hard to answer. That's why you had to do the 10 questions, 10 inquiry to figure them out. So if look into the 10 inquiry, basically you are really aware whether it's a root or branch. And also it gives you more information if it's a root. So I think that is his whole philosophy, why he created those networks, why he gave us those tools. And also,

Allen: Why he's ever later focused so much into the ming men Today we call it kidney in and kidney out. So if we look into his formula, it's it's really heavy on the kidneys. So.

Toby: Yeah. To redirect our attention back to the root. Yeah.

Allen: Precisely. So basically when you're treating disease, yes, at times we do want to remove those branches, but do not take the constitution under the constitution. I think that's his greatest contribution to us. to this day, including with, I think sometimes we do take it a little bit too extreme to the point that when Chinese patients come to me, like, oh yeah, Chinese medicine, oh, they help with chronic disease and help with the constitution, cannot treat it.

Allen: Are you for real? Can I give you some Da Huang? I guarantee you'll poop in phlegm of me in one hour. But to this day, I think he tells the Chinese medicine so much into the constitution, which is a great thing. But at the same time, we must not forget Zhu Danxi

Toby: The pendulum, right? You know what the pendulum is going to Mario? It'll have keep pulling back to the middle.

Allen: You want to get a full package. also, from his formulas, he does have some really interesting formulas. So some formulas he does deal with both at the same time, but with different degree of emphasis. that's why after the Zhang Jingyue books, I went into his formula. But at the same time, I don'trust Zhang Jingyue by himself. feel like sometimes he can be his somewhere and where he is like the greatest

Allen: The lower of all. So bring in the Darth Vader of the Chinese medical realm, which is Chen Xiuyuan, which attacked every single one of his formula, which is fun. So think the best part about that work is Chen Xiuyuan is like, this formula is actually great. That's why I'm like, OK, I think that's a very good formula, even Darth Vader say so.

Toby: Appreciate you putting it into Star Wars references so I can follow along with your argument. I really appreciate that. Okay. I'm going you one more question and then we're going to let you go. So in this metaphor, who's Yoda of Chinese medicine?

Allen: No, you're the Chinese

Toby: Yes.

Allen: I had to think about this. So it's very easy, very tempting to just say either someone like Zhang or Sun Simiao I think that's too boring. I need to think harder.

Toby: Okay. You want to think hard now or let us know later. We'll put it, if you're watching this on YouTube, we'll put it here. If you're watching, if you're listening to this, we'll put it in the show notes. Allen's answer, who is, this is like a little bit of a teaser. Who is the Yoda of Chinese medicine The last couple of millennia of Chinese medicine, who's the Yoda of that?

Allen: I think in my head right now there are two people. one is the unknown author of the Nei Jing

Toby: Okay, yeah. Okay. I'm so glad you dug into this because yeah, I think that is the correct answer, right? So that's the true Yoda. mean, light years ahead of its time, even now we're still trying to understand it. So, okay.

Allen: The unknown author, singular Case. That's my personal take from early Eastern Han dynasty. so he, because he defined how we look at channels nowadays, which kind of went through a complete revolution from the Moldova to tiankui development. So six channel flip and also everything got connected together. And also we look at Qi completely differently. And also he linked, I think, I'll just choose this end together and also merged two linears together.

Toby: Okay.

Allen: He is a Yoda. So that's one. And what is...

Toby: Okay, wait, you're saying the other one is Baby Grogu. Okay, go.

Allen: Maybe. one I always argue is why do people like Jingfang so much? Because formula seem be so versatile, so robust and so well. We kind of forget one thing. It is because we have more than 100 commentators working on things for 2000 years.

Toby: Yeah.

Toby: And I'll

Allen: Jingfang is so viable. So I think all the commentators, even the ones we no longer remember, those are the greatest contributor to our practice because they were the one who took those formula ideas, cast them, tell us how to tweak them, how to work it, how to refine them. What makes Shanghanlun formula so great today? It's not the formula itself isn't great. I mean, they're great, but there are also really weird ones like

Allen: On the last chapter of Jinggui Yao Liyuan. Look at the formula. You will never use any of them. But all the other testers ones, it's because we have all the commentators. So the reason why I wanted to do the Zhang Jinyue formulas, because I feel like he has a lot of ideas. But he didn't have commentators. He only had like two, three people.

Angelique: And it's actually one. Hmm.

Allen: Why I kind of went through all the different sources, tried to bring as many commentators, as many critiques possible to hopefully to give us a better representation and ideas about his formulas.

Angelique: And to make them

Allen: Viable and sometimes I would just randomly look through Sun Simiao He has a lot we only have one commentary in history.

Toby: That's amazing, right? I didn't realize that. Okay, Allen, we're gonna let you go to get back to your translations and everything like that. Thanks so much for taking the time and educating Angelique and I. We really appreciate it. Okay, in the future, we'll talk, we'll bring you back and then see if we can get who's Qui-Gon Jin of the other. Okay, we'll bring you back for the next one for that, okay? Yeah. All right, Allen, thanks so much for your time. Thanks everybody. you. All right, bye for now. Bye.

Allen: We.